Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 10th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Mr. Simms, I'm sorry, but that's our time. It's a great question. I'm sure the ambassador will be able to get back to you off-line.

[Bob Rae]

Don't worry. I'll find a way to get it out there.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Ambassador.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I'm sure you will, Ambassador.

We're now moving to the Conservatives and MP Chiu, please, for five minutes.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm actually intrigued by the question and wouldn't mind using my time to provide Mr. Rae the chance to answer.

Please go ahead.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Excellent.

[Bob Rae]

We have to really appreciate the consequences of denying education to a whole generation of children. To me, the treatment of the Rohingya inside Rakhine State was terrible. There was serious discrimination in terms of access to education.

In the camps, I thought there was an opportunity for Bangladesh to authorize more. Finally, after two years of lobbying and efforts that we all made, both vocally and quietly, every way you can possibly pressure, the Government of Bangladesh agreed to make progress on education. Then along came COVID, as well as some other situations inside the camp, which made it more difficult for us to get those decisions implemented. We're now seeing a generation, over a long period of time, not have access to education.

Scott, you'll appreciate this as a broadcaster. I had a conversation with a young man in the Sittwe camp, where he started talking to me in an American accent. I said, “Where did you learn your English?” He said, “I learned it on my phone. I like watching western movies. I watch western movies; that's where I got it.” What do you think? It's amazing.

When you deny people access to the Internet and you deny people access to communication, even any informal type of education becomes impossible. That's the tragedy we're facing. That's the issue we have to face up to.

I very much endorse what Manny Maung said about humanitarian access. I can only say that it is front and centre in everything the Government of Canada says, in Bangladesh and in Myanmar, both publicly and privately. It's a fundamental principle that humanitarian actors have to be able to get access to places where they can't go—

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Ambassador. I appreciate that.

My next question is actually for Mr. Mueller.

Mr. Mueller, during the committee's November 26 meeting, witnesses reported that Rohingya refugees are eager to return to their lands and homes in Myanmar. The first question that I have for you is what elements are necessary for a safe repatriation of Rohingya refugees to Myanmar, in your opinion?

[David Mueller]

The situation is not conducive for any return, either for the local IDPs or for the refugees outside the country to return at this time. The primary thing that's blocking it is that there is a war going on. The AA and the Tatmadaw are fighting in the home areas of the Rohingya, and they can't go back. Unless the fighting stops, they can't go back. Then there are the other aspects. Villages were bulldozed and there's no place for them. Their homes are not even recognizable anymore in northern Rakhine, and properties have been confiscated. They've moved people in to settle in areas, and I don't think there's a genuine interest for anybody to come back. The other problem is that a lot of the problems are political in nature, and it's not a matter of fixing something technical. It's a political will that needs to be changed.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

My next question is for Ms. Maung.

In your earlier answer to our questions, you mentioned something that is actually quite concerning to me, almost to the point of suggesting that Rohingya are quickly becoming stateless in the international community's eyes. Are the internally displaced Rohingya stateless? In other words, it doesn't matter whether they're in camps in Myanmar or in Bangladesh. Are they stateless, and what about those Rohingya who are not in IDP camps in Myanmar?

[Manny Maung]

The quick answer is, yes, all Rohingya are stateless at this point in time, and that is due to this discriminatory 1982 citizenship law that effectively stripped them of all their rights. They didn't used to be stateless. They were recognized as Myanmar citizens prior to 1982, but since then, the subsequent governments of Myanmar have endorsed this law, which we effectively want repealed. As for the conditions for the 600,000 Rohingya—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to raise a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I'm really sorry and I hope it will be possible to stop the clock, but the interpreters are having a hard time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I'll see if we can get that fixed and put it in order. Can someone speak so we can see if it's working now?

[Manny Maung]

I just wanted to finish up by saying, on the issue of the 600,000 or so other Rohingya in Myanmar—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, is it working now?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I've just been told that the lady should move her microphone closer. I guess she has to bring it closer to her mouth.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Okay. Now, we're actually going to be moving to you, Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe, for your five minutes. We'll ask you, Ms. Maung, if you could just keep your mike as close to your mouth as possible when answering questions, for the interpretation. Thank you.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I may have interrupted Ms. Maung's intervention. If she continued it, I would appreciate it.

No? Very well.

In any case, I was just about to ask a question.

Ms. Maung, witnesses before the subcommittee predicted that the Rohingya refugee crisis would last a very long time.

Is this also your opinion?

I would like to hear your comments on this.

[Manny Maung]

Yes, absolutely. The situation is already far too protracted. As Mr. Mueller said, the conditions right now, even in Rakhine State, are such that the Rohingya within Myanmar cannot go back to their places of origin. The Rohingya in Bangladesh have already been there for three years with little opportunity, and the situation is such that there's no way they can come back to similar situations where there is active conflict. In fact, their homes aren't there anymore.

When we're discussing accountability and justice, it's very important that we collect evidence as we go along. It's very important to the key element of ICC. This is the ongoing element of genocide. People's homes are now still actively being razed or people cannot go back because of safety concerns, and we need to look at that in the context of the existing crimes against humanity that have already been committed against them.

We have not made a genocide determination at Human Rights Watch because it is a legal determination, but we do acknowledge that acts of genocide have been committed. Humanitarian access, the rights of the Rohingya and the IDP situation that exists there right now are all intrinsically linked to issues of accountability and justice.

We look at the situations of IDPs from other ethnic minority groups, such as the Kachin, the Shan and the Karen in Myanmar, and these issues have not been isolated. Their situations are also protracted. Ultimately, this is an accountability and justice issue, because right now Myanmar continues to act with impunity and its military continues to commit atrocity crimes with impunity.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

As you just said, it's already been three years and we know it will last for several more years.

How does a humanitarian organization like yours prepare for the Rohingya refugee crisis that will last such a long time? How can we help you in all of this?

[Manny Maung]

I'm very grateful to Canada, to start with. I think there have been some really positive and brave steps made, especially in regard to joining the intervention with Gambia and the Netherlands. We definitely want to continue these conversations to encourage Canada to do more. As we said before, we need Canada to be more vocal within the country and outside of the country.

These next five years are going to be crucial. We don't want IDPs to be in the same situation they are in now, and it is getting worse for them. We haven't even touched on the mental health issues that are stemming from this. People are living in a constant state of uncertainty and violence. We have talked about the gender-based violence that's going on because of this protracted crisis, but the mental health situation for adults and children is dire. We don't want this to continue. It's getting to a crisis again, and the international community really needs to come together to make some decisions so that we have agreed-upon elements to press Myanmar on. Right now everyone seems very muted.

I'll be really candid. There is such a fear of losing access to Myanmar generally, and its government has already had five years to prove its worth and has fallen well short. We're nowhere near a democratic level yet. We really need to—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I want to thank you for your incredible work. Thank you so much for being here tonight.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe and Ms. Maung.

We are moving to our final five minutes, and they will be for the NDP.

Ms. McPherson, go ahead.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I need to reiterate what Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe has said. It's incredible work from all of you. Thank you so much for what you do.

I would like to ask Mr. Mueller some questions now, and I have a very quick question I wanted to touch on that I didn't have time for in my last intervention.

Mr. Mueller, you talked a bit about January 2021 being a time when there will be a report and when a review will be done of what is happening. Could you follow up on that? First of all, what will that look like? Second of all, will it be possible to do so, understanding the current COVID context we're in?

[David Mueller]

The universal periodic review will take place in Geneva. It will still go forward, and it will be done virtually. It's a peer review. All nations will have a chance to give their feedback to Myanmar. There are over 40 civil society groups that have actively made recommendations. They've already presented in the presessions this week. Groups are going from mission to mission, promoting their recommendations.

I took this opportunity in my statement to list some of the issues that the INGOs collectively want to raise. Among them are the things we've talked about. Rights of women are among them, including education, as has been pointed out. The freedom of movement is probably the biggest one in relation to the Rohingya.

If Canada will be making recommendations as well, if you could take a look at the recommendations from any of those 40 groups and put those on your list as well, they are all valid and hitting at the main key points. They are really at a political level, not at a humanitarian level. There are many humanitarian workers ready and willing to work, but we can't do our jobs if there's not a political will to access that.

One big challenge is that if we don't change these laws about citizenship and such, the international community is allowing this thing to go forward and supporting a government in an apartheid policy. The Government of Myanmar will continue to separate these people. It has no intention of giving them a state. We need to take this opportunity, in the peer review, to strongly recommend that the citizenship laws be struck, that people's access to services be granted and that they are granted a state identification, so they can have their lives back.