Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 10th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Now we'll move to the NDP and Ms. McPherson for seven minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. This has been very interesting and fascinating, so much so that my dog has joined us today.

I have so many questions for you all. Of course, the biggest burden is that we have such a short time.

Ms. Maung, I think I will start with you. I was very interested in the discussion we were having in terms of legal recognition, legal empowerment—or disempowerment, I guess, as the case may be. Could you speak a little bit more about that? Then, perhaps, just comment on what you would like to see this committee say and this government do to help address some of those issues.

[Manny Maung]

Thank you very much.

On legal recognition, the key factor is that the discriminatory 1982 citizenship law effectively strips the Rohingya of any entitlements to statehood or citizenship rights. This is a key factor when we're talking about things like freedom of movement, access to health care and being able to go home. We've seen that with these spates of violence and communal violence, as well as military violence, usually there is a process by which people who can go home are genuinely considered Burmese or Myanmar, and in this case Rohingya have been denied that right. In a country where citizenship is synonymous with the freedom of movement, we really want the Myanmar government to address these issues.

This is really important in the context of Canada, because Canada has been a key ally for human rights groups in maintaining that their citizenship rights need to be reinstated and that they must be allowed freedom of movement, including the removal of discriminatory regulations.

This has become worse since COVID-19, where the factors of restrictions to curb the infection rate have compounded the lack of available services for Rohingya.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Do you feel that is legitimate? Is COVID being used as a shield or is that a legitimate thing?

[Manny Maung]

It's a legitimate concern. I mean, prior to COVID-19 humanitarians were already stressing that they had such problems getting access. Having a monthly provision that they need to apply for a travel authority to go into the same areas in which they work on a regular basis is just nonsense. Then with COVID-19 coming into it, we expect that the government needs to put measures in place to curb infection rates, but some of these are being applied arbitrarily, unfairly.

Without eyes on the ground, without humanitarians, without independent monitors, we can't monitor the situation, but we're hearing such disturbing stories, as Mr. Mueller brought up before. There is extortion just to be able to go from one area of a camp to another, bribery and more violence on these people who have been deprived for, now, almost eight years.

These movements, of course, and these factors are really systemic, because we've seen similar infringements being placed on the Rohingya in Bangladesh as well. We can see a precedent taking place, and it's very disturbing. We need to really demand that these things end.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Is that what you would ask the Canadian government to do, the vocal demanding of that? Are there any other things that you need the Canadian government to do? That's what we put in our report.

[Manny Maung]

Thank you. Yes, exactly, we do need Canada to demand that citizenship rights be reinstated and that freedom of movement is not intrinsically linked to statehood. A key process to this is access for humanitarians to go into these camps and have unfettered access to deliver the services they need to.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you. Thank you for your work and all of the wonderful things you're doing and sharing with us today.

Mr. Rae, I had an opportunity to chat with you in the foreign affairs committee as well, but I would like to just take a moment to talk a little bit about a humanitarian response from the Canadian government. We know that $400 million has been allocated: $200 million for development and $200 million for a humanitarian response during the COVID-19 crisis. What I'm hearing from organizations is that this has not rolled out.

What I'm wondering is this. When we hear from witnesses, like we are tonight, how do we get the Canadian government to recognize the urgency of this? You spoke of children not being able to go to school. We have heard time and time again that there is an education program coming, particularly focusing on girls, yet it hasn't happened. How do we get the urgency to be recognized and acted upon?

[Bob Rae]

Well, not to argue with you, but I think the reality in the camps, whether it's a camp in Rakhine State or whether it's the camp in Bangladesh, is that the absence of education is not because of the absence of funding. It's because the governments are not allowing those programs to take place.

There was no access to the Internet for an extended period of time, partly because of COVID, but even before COVID it was introduced and that had to do with security issues, as they were described, in both Cox's Bazar on the Bangladeshi side and in Myanmar.

It's important that the money gets spent, that it gets allocated and that it gets distributed. I think that's something we have to continue to make sure happens, but I think the big issue—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

How do we do that? How do we make that happen?

[Bob Rae]

You know how to work in Parliament as well as anybody. You'd have to do it.

I think very clearly the big issue now, though, is what's going to happen after March 31. The money has been allocated. It's going to go out the door. The key thing now is to make sure that we are looking at a situation in 2021, 2022, 2023, where we have an assurance of long-term stable funding at levels that will meet the degree of the situation.

Since we last spoke, since I last spoke to you, we were talking about aid levels. Most unfortunately, the British have cut back on their foreign assistance by a very substantial amount, by over four billion pounds.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes, but of course that means they're still ahead of us in terms of their GNI.

[Bob Rae]

No, Heather, come on. Let's put partisanship aside for a second.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

But that is accurate. I'm from the sector. That is an accurate piece.

[Bob Rae]

We're spending more than we did last year. We've increased dramatically from last year. We have to keep on spending more. I'm just saying—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

We have a long way to go.

[Bob Rae]

Yes, we do. I'm not disagreeing with you. I am saying that we have to keep moving in the right direction.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ambassador. Thank you, MP McPherson.

We're moving into our second round. There's a great discussion taking place. I propose that we finish the full second round, even though it goes past the hour. We started a little bit late. It will go into our committee business, members. Once we conclude the second round, we will then go in camera after that second round.

As we move into the second round, we have, for the Liberals, Mr. Simms. You're up for five minutes.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for being generous with the time and extending it. I was hoping you'd do that. I appreciate it.

I want to start with Ms. Maung, as well as Ms. Deif. Something you said earlier was a “severe deprivation of liberty", and yes, no doubt...with all the examples that you gave. Some of the other issues you brought up, for me, are very important.

With where we are as a country and the international influence we have, some of the issues that concern me greatly are things like severe under-reporting of what is happening now in the midst of COVID-19. I'm assuming it's quite severe all over. I'm talking about internally displaced persons in general, whether they be in Bangladesh or in Myanmar. The blocked Internet capabilities have been discussed, and just the lack of transportation infrastructure for anybody to provide the aid, notwithstanding the fact that the vast majority of medical supplies will be outside the camps themselves, obviously, that is problematic.

Before we get to installing more of the liberties for these people to access education, to access a better life, what do we have to do as a country to first say to them that we have to get in there and provide better communications, better transportation for all those involved, whether it be your organization, UNHCR, and so on and so forth?

I'll start with Ms. Maung.

[Manny Maung]

Thank you, Mr. Simms.

I mentioned this earlier as well and I keep stressing it, because overwhelmingly, when I speak to humanitarians on the ground, they tell me how frustrating and difficult it is to deliver these services when they simply don't have access. The problem isn't that the aid isn't there. The aid is there. They just can't deliver it because of these barriers that have been put in place.

To be fair to the Myanmar government, they are allowed to create mechanisms to prevent the spread of infection, but I wonder sometimes whether it's ignorance or just incompetence that they can't make these processes faster.

I have been really grateful to the Canadian government because we've seen them as such good allies, especially in regard to being vocal about accountability and justice, and intervention with Gambia on the case before the International Court of Justice. However, within Myanmar, we need stronger voices.

With their lack of access, humanitarians already are fearful. They're timid and they're muted because they're so concerned about losing what little access they already have. They can't speak up—

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

How do we overcome that timidity?

[Manny Maung]

We really need governments to speak up on this, and the Government of Canada can do that. We can pressure the Myanmar government to allow more access. In some ways, they might be feeling some pressure, but the step to actually remove those barriers still hasn't quite happened. Therefore, we would ask the Canadian government to pressure the Myanmar government more, to be more vocal, to speak up more, to have these conversations with government as well.

Actually, one really important factor I forgot to mention is that, overwhelmingly, humanitarians kept saying to me, “We think these conversations are happening with governments, where one government is advising the other, but we don't know.”

It would be helpful if we had more advocacy on this, and certainly, public advocacy, but it would also be really helpful if governments took a stronger stance. Right now, as we said, humanitarians are muted because they're so afraid of losing their access. I think the responsibility really falls on the governments and the missions within the country to speak up.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Being more forceful would certainly help out their situation, because they have to be in a timid position right now. It's up to us to help them out, to bring them through.

[Manny Maung]

Yes, and we do know that we're working with an Aung San Suu Kyi government. We do know that we're working with the NLD again. We can't give them a free pass again. We did that in the last five years, where we gave them full benefit and credit to prove that they would revoke their repressive laws. They haven't done that. Therefore, we can be stronger.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

That's a good point.

Ambassador Rae, it's good to see you again. Thank you for your report, “Tell Them We're Human”. There are 16 recommendations. You lean a lot on the education aspect of it. I'm so glad you did. That's a shining example because in many cases the vast majority, I'm assuming almost half, are children.

Can you very quickly talk about the impact that just that bit of education has on the population?