Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 18th, 2022

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for their testimony.

I would like to address my first question to Ms. Martel.

I want to pick up on what you were saying about the fact that whatever we do, we need to be listening to Haitian feminists and Haitian civil society. You mentioned the sexual violence in the context of the international forces. It sounds like you're saying that the women in Haiti are not asking for an international force. It's more along the humanitarian lines.

You know that Canada is the second-largest humanitarian donor to Haiti after the United States. We also just contributed $10 million to the UNDP basket fund, which is specifically on building capacity of the police and security forces. Is this the right direction? Should we continue on the humanitarian side and on building up the capacity of Haitian authorities to be able to bring back law and order? Is that what the women in Haiti are asking for as opposed to an international force?

[Andréanne Martel]

Thank you for your question.

Before answering, I want to point out that I am not speaking on behalf of Haitian feminists. They are fighting their own battle and they discuss it in public.

However, I can answer that it is civil society groups, including women's groups, that are opposing the government. They are the ones who have organized the most and who mobilized strongly at the time against the MINUSTAH, when there were cases of sexual assault. It really was women's groups in Haiti who denounced the situation and spoke out against the impunity granted to soldiers and members of the military who were sent to their country and did not have to submit to the Haitian justice system.

Given that background, certainly an international military intervention like the ones we have seen in the past is not really the solution to the sexual violence happening at present. There are organizations in Haiti that have existed for decades. In fact, the women's movement is one of the first to have really risen up and mobilized after the dictatorship. The women's movement in Haiti is extremely strong. There are organizations that work for women's health and against spousal violence.

Unfortunately, the last times the international community intervened, it did not take that expertise into account. Today, we hope it will be done differently. As Ms. Asselin said, there are many cases of sexual violence. We absolutely have to work with these organizations, because they know how to respond, they know what to do to support the survivors.

I hope that answers your question, Ms. Vandenbeld.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Yes, thank you.

That is the essence of our feminist international assistance policy, to make sure that we are listening to the expertise of local women.

My second question is for Madame Asselin.

You were talking about the gangs and their violence. We've heard at this committee from a children's rights advocate in Haiti. We heard that the gangs are also made up of victims. They are children who have been forcibly separated from their families then recruited into these gangs. So they are victims too.

My question for you is what do we do about that?

Obviously, the answers are not simple when the very people committing the violence are victims themselves.

[Michèle Asselin]

That's actually a very complicated question.

Our Haitian partners say they know the gang leaders. The reason the gangs are armed is that guns are coming into Haiti. If we're able to control the borders, we should be able to put an end to the trafficking of weapons from Miami, among other places. Organizations are very upset about this, and they want us to take action. If there are no more guns coming into the country, that will help reduce the explosion of gang violence.

We don't think military intervention is needed, but rather a strengthening of the Haitian police. In fact, Canada had begun to do this by training police officers in Haiti. Now we should step up our efforts so that the police in Haiti can play their role and arrest those responsible. The impunity they are granted only strengthens their power. If you want to take care of victims, you have to fight poverty. This is done through education, but it's very difficult to go back to school right now because the roads are blocked and there are too many dangers.

So we have to support the political transition and support the police, so that they can play their role without being threatened, but it's not easy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you, Ms. Asselin. Perhaps the next speaker will ask you about this.

Mr. Genuis, for five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

It's great for me to be back visiting this committee.

I want to start by just asking any or all of the witnesses about these armed gangs themselves. What do we know about their possible motivation, political motivations or otherwise?

Do they have specific goals they want to achieve? Are they organizationally sophisticated or are they chaotic?

What's going on in terms of how the gangs are organized and what they are trying to achieve?

[Frédéric Boisrond]

If I may, I'd like to answer that question by saying that what we're seeing in Haiti right now is a civil war. One of the gangs, which is named “Mouvement révolutionnaire G9”, has an objective of overthrowing the government.

In the past months, they have, in the first place, asked for seats in the government of Ariel Henry; but since the beginning, their idea has been to overthrow the government. Of course, there are ransoms and kidnappings for money and stuff, but the main objective of that group, which was sanctioned by the UN and Canada—Jimmy Chérizier—is to overthrow the government.

I'd like to make sure that we all understand that, because what we are seeing in Haiti is war crime. It's crime against humanity, but also war crime. If we don't put that into the equation, we are going to miss lots of things going on in that country right now.

I'm going—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sorry, but can I just probe that point? You mentioned one gang. It sounds to me that understanding it as a rebel force is maybe a more useful frame for our understanding it. Is it representative of the various gangs? Do you have this gang that's trying to overthrow the government and others that are simply using criminal means to enrich themselves, with no specific political goals, or do they all have some kinds of political goals?

[Frédéric Boisrond]

The one that we talk most about is “G9 en famille”, the “Mouvement révolutionnaire”.

One of the senators that was sanctioned by Canada, Joseph Lambert, had said at one point, “If ever we want to dismantle the gangs, we also have to keep in mind that there are some of them who are revolutionary gangs.”

I have said previously in my speech that the actual political class in Haiti has transformed that country into a voyoucratie. This is what I mean. This idea, this ideology of criminal actions in Haiti, comes from the top to the bottom. Keep in mind that what we're seeing in Haiti right now is war crime and war against humanity.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay, for our frame we need to understand. I'm getting the impression that we have one prominent revolutionary gang, as well as some purely criminal gangs. Is that correct?

[Frédéric Boisrond]

Yes, you're correct.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm assuming that people would have very different motivations for joining these different gangs, depending on what objectives they're motivated by?

[Frédéric Boisrond]

Yes. But I want to emphasize that their definition of “revolutionary” is not the way I see a revolution. I just want to make sure that.... They are still criminals, not people who want the good for their country.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm a Conservative, so the idea of “revolution” has a very negative association for me, in general, but thank you for helping for making that distinction to clarify this.

Perhaps I have time for this question, a longer term consideration. Prior to this conflict, I spoke with a lot of people who've had concerns about the challenges with attracting foreign investment into Haiti, saying that there are so many people willing to give development assistance, but not willing to actually invest and try to build businesses and create jobs in Haiti. Is this a long-term challenge? How can we encourage more economic growth through investment as coming alongside development assistance as a tool for building up the country?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

You have 10 seconds.

[Frédéric Boisrond]

We agree on this. If we want to work on trade capacity-building, security has to be the first item that we have to solve. Why would you invest in a country where you might lose all your investment because of gangs?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sameer Zuberi]

Thank you.

We'll continue on with Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe, pour cinq minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Chair, today's panel of witnesses is extremely interesting. I really want to thank everyone. Their testimony is going to help us with the report. Our analysts are taking note of all of this.

Ms. Asselin, I imagine you're aware of the situation. What's happening on the ground right now for the safety of aid workers? We don't hear much about it, and I think it would be important for you to give us a brief summary.

[Michèle Asselin]

For several years now, Quebec co‑operation organizations have set up projects that are supported by Haitian workers. Unfortunately, there are few aid workers from the Quebec co‑operation on the ground. It's very difficult now to participate in missions and to be welcomed by our partners, because they are threatened.

There are a whole host of rules related to security, particularly with respect to travel. We need to move all kinds of humanitarian supplies. I was talking about agriculture, which is a huge challenge. We are forced to take alternative means of transportation, such as small planes, because we can't get from one area to another. This is a big concern.

It's impressive that we can still hold meetings. Thanks to technology and Zoom, we're able to talk to our partners on a regular basis. We realize that they continue to do the work.

I was saying earlier that there were 100,000 displaced people. They are being displaced in the countryside and to their places of origin, and that creates enormous pressure. That's why there is a food crisis, which farmers are also experiencing. There's still great capacity in Haiti, but for the time being, people don't have what they need to produce. It's clear that insecurity threatens everyone in Haiti, including the staff of all the organizations we work with.

On the humanitarian front, there are large non-profit organizations, such as those that are organizing the fight against cholera. I won't be able to go on at length, but I think that these are organizations with great resources, such as the United Nations, that are working to provide an immediate response to cholera and the humanitarian crisis.

We will distribute food, but it's very short term. Our main concern is to ensure the safety of farmers so that they can meet the needs of the population. They can do it, but they need to have the inputs, they need to be able to work safely, and they need to be able to move food around the country.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Are aid workers in Haiti sometimes forced to negotiate with gang leaders and pay them bribes just to have access to the population or a certain territory? Are you aware of that reality?

[Michèle Asselin]

I'm not aware of the specifics of this reality. I can say one thing, though, because of the lack of fuel everywhere, everybody is forced to buy it on the black market, including Global Affairs Canada staff. This is truly a major crisis.

How far does the influence of gangs extend? According to NGOs, they aren't working with gangs. However, there is certainly a black market for basic necessities, such as fuel, which is the only source of energy. It's not an easy situation.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Asselin.

Mr. Boisrond, I only have a minute left, but I really want to hear what you have to say about the civil war, a term you used. I think that's the first time we've heard that here at the committee.

I'd like you to elaborate on that because it'll be helpful for us when we write the report.

[Frédéric Boisrond]

Most of the gangs wanted to overthrow Jovenel Moïse's government from the start. After that, they always maintained that Ariel Henry's government had to be overthrown. What I'm telling you can be verified: these gangs even publish videos in which they say they want to overthrow this government. Jimmy Cherizier is one of them. The newspaper Le Nouvelliste published an article referring to the demands the gangs made to the government. The article stated that they were going to propose a transitional government, a roadmap for the transition—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

It was like the Montana agreement, and they were basically taking back the government.

[Frédéric Boisrond]

In fact, the Montana agreement wasn't part of the deal; they would be the ones forming the transitional government. It's all documented, there's no doubt about it.

So it's a civil war because the goal is to overthrow the current government.