Evidence of meeting #19 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gangs.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
That's the definition of a civil war. Thank you very much for your answer.
Liberal
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you. I'm sorry about that.
I was just saying, thank you, again, to the witnesses for their testimony. This will be very helpful for us as we put forward recommendations.
Mr. Boisrond, I have some questions for you.
You were speaking about the ways we need to get a level of order in Haiti, before we can do those next pieces in developing the democracy process. One thing you talked about was education for Haitians on democracy. Right now, in Haiti, we know the media has been attacked and journalists have been murdered. There is no capacity for the media to do that.
Is that a role you see countries like Canada playing? Could Canada step in and be part of that portion of the solution? Could we be providing those supports?
Sociologist, As an Individual
I have been asking for that, for many years—that Canada be part of this. I have talked about it with Monsieur Carrière, who is the ambassador in Haiti. What Haiti needs, right now, is popular education in democracy.
Overnight, we went from a dictatorship to a democracy, which ended up, in fact, with the people having only one real power, which was the power to vote. The right to vote was stolen right away. Right off the bat, it was stolen. People in Haiti have no idea what living in a democracy is like, because they have not lived in it—at least, right now—for almost 60 years. I am 65 years old. I was born in 1958, the year Duvalier came to power, so anybody my age has known only dictatorship and only a few episodes of democracy. This is a country where people have never been exposed to what democracy is.
I encourage Canada and ask, one more time, that we help popular education in democracy, not only for the political class but also for regular citizens, so they understand what is right and what the responsibilities are.
Democracy is built on the trust we have in each other. When you have been living, for 65 years, in a country where you don't know who you can trust...this is living in a dictatorship. Dictatorship is not only a structure but also a culture. If we don't help Haitians get rid of that culture, we are only going to see this over and over again.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
That is well said. Thank you very much for that.
The other thing that we know needs to happen in Haiti, right now, is stopping the gang violence, so that some of these things can move forward.
The Canadian government has sanctioned some Haitians. Do you think there is a need to increase that list of sanctions? Should we be doing more, using those tools for sanctioning individuals—not countries, of course, but individuals? Would that be useful?
Sociologist, As an Individual
Yes, it would be useful and I hope you're going to put some more names on the list. This is going to send a message straight to the political and business classes that things done in that country....
In fact, putting people on the list is a message to Canadians. It tells Canadians that Canada is not ready to deal with criminals. It is not ready to deal with people who are keeping Haitians in poverty and terror. This is a message to Canada—to ourselves. What are we, as Canadians, ready to do, not only to help Haitians but also to protect our image as a country? Are we ready to make that change? I hope the list is going to go up.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
I know I don't have very much time, but I would also say the list is important. The enforcement is, of course, more important. I always wonder if the enforcement is as strong as it needs to be.
I promise you that I will continue to push on that end, from my side.
Mr. Chair, I believe I am done.
November 18th, 2022 / 9:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sameer Zuberi
Exactly, but thank you, Ms. McPherson. You timed yourself amazingly well.
We'll now continue with Mr. Ehsassi for five minutes.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Allow me to start off by thanking all three of our witnesses for their expertise and insights. This has been a really valuable session.
As all three of them have made it abundantly clear, we're watching a confluence of crises going on in Haiti. The one that really breaks anyone's heart is the conditions on the ground in Haiti. As I understand it, many of the banks, schools and hospitals are closed.
If I could start off with Ms. Asselin, how do we fortify the efforts of organizations on the ground in Haiti, so that they can do a better job of doing what they are there to do?
As you know, the conditions are very chaotic. What do we do, as a country, to lend them a helping hand to stabilize the situation?
Executive Director, Association québécoise des organismes de coopération internationale
I'll repeat what Ms. Martel said.
Every day on the ground, we're seeing that Canada's co‑operation needs to be strengthened, and it needs to be done with flexibility. The funding we have from Global Affairs Canada has to adapt to a reality that is very much in flux.
We have volunteer-sending programs that last seven years. We have medium- and long-term programs, and we applaud those longer-term programs. However, the current co‑operation programs in Haiti need to be very flexible in order to continually adapt to the situation. It's not always easy for a big machine.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Ms. Asselin, what I'm talking about is capacity-building on the ground.
How do we do that to ensure that all those organizations that may be on the ground in Haiti have the capacity?
Executive Director, Association québécoise des organismes de coopération internationale
That's what I was trying to answer. Perhaps I misspoke.
Canada is providing aid currently. More can be done, but for this aid to be as effective as possible, we must work with non-profit organizations in all areas, including health, education, justice and agriculture. We need to be able to respond quickly to needs, and flexibility is important. We are in discussions with Global Affairs Canada to try to find solutions.
As I said before, and I'll say it again, we need to provide support to the Haitian police to ensure some security. The Canadian government must take action.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you very much.
Now, if I can, I'll go to Mr. Boisrond. I also found your testimony very compelling, especially what little faith you have in the old political elites. You seem to have much greater confidence in younger Haitians who are, obviously, on the ground and familiar with all of the challenges.
What do we do to support younger leaders in Haiti, to make sure that we can move forward?
Sociologist, As an Individual
Let's work with them. Let's invite them.
I was listening to those two senators who were sanctioned by Canada. That was a surprise, because they said they have always been allies of Canada. They were invited by the Government of Canada and by the Government of Quebec.
Maybe Canada should start inviting the younger leaders in Haiti, have some leadership school and help them build their leadership through some programs. I think this would be very helpful.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Absolutely. You have certainly highlighted that dynamic.
I understand I'm out of time.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sameer Zuberi
Thank you, Mr. Ehsassi.
We will continue with Mr. Genuis for five minutes.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you, Chair.
There may be a bit of background noise where I am, so I will mute myself in between asking the questions.
I wonder if our witnesses could share a bit about how, in particular, Canada could build security capacity. What steps can we take to support the development of strong armed forces and police forces that are able to provide Haitians with the security they need over the long term?
Sociologist, As an Individual
There's a sociologist in Haiti. Her name is Michèle Oriol. She said that one of the really big problems of the national police in Haiti is not necessarily the materiel they have. She said the recruitment of the police in Haiti is part of the failure of this organization. The people who are recruited for the police don't have the capacity from the beginning, from off the bat. They don't have the capacity to accomplish the work itself.
Another thing that I think is important is that the salary paid to a policeman or woman in Haiti, at this very moment, is about $325 Canadian a month. This makes the police in themselves very open to corruption. In fact, Barbecue Jimmy Chérizier is an ex-policeman. Many of the people who are in the gangs, all the gang leaders, were policemen. Why? First, they weren't prepared for that very sensitive position; and second, they are underpaid; and third, even if you train them, they might not have the capacity from the beginning to absorb the training.
This must be considered in the solution. How do we hire? How do we train and how do we pay?
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Just building on that, and I'd love to bring in some of the other witnesses as well, I think in some countries—I think of Georgia and Ukraine—at points in the past they pursued very dramatic police reform programs. It was explained to me by a previous Georgian ambassador that basically they realized that the existing police were doing more harm than good, and so they fired them all and replaced them with a whole new group.
I'm not suggesting being too specific, but are there things that we can learn from those models and is this now a time for a dramatic reform of the security apparatus in Haiti?