Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 38 of the House of Commons Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and the members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by videoconference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the raise hand function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed their required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Before we start, I want to stress that today's meeting is on the unlawful transfer of Ukrainian children to Russia. Some of the discussion could be difficult for witnesses, people watching at home, members of the subcommittee and members in general.

Anyone experiencing distress or in need of assistance can contact the clerk for information on support services offered by the House of Commons Administration.

Now it's my pleasure to welcome the witnesses who have joined us this morning, all of them appearing by video conference.

From Save Ukraine—we would like to save Ukraine—we have Mykola Kuleba, Chief Executive Officer.

Mr. Kuleba, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Mykola Kuleba, Chief Executive Officer, Save Ukraine]

Dear ladies and gentlemen, it is indeed an honour to be standing before you today.

I'm Mykola Kuleba, and my work in children's advocacy spans more than 25 years. I served as a presidential commissioner for children's rights under two presidents of Ukraine, and now I lead the Save Ukraine rescue network, a charitable organization that rescues Ukraine's most vulnerable from combat zones and helps them restore their lives through a suite of social services. I'm deeply grateful for the opportunity to speak before you.

I'm here to speak about Ukraine's children. My main message is simple: The Russian Federation is committing genocide of the Ukrainian nation by forcibly transferring our children to Russia and annihilating their Ukrainian identity.

Both words and actions of Russian officials indicate an intent to separate Ukrainian children permanently from their families and their national and ethnic groups, thereby annihilating their Ukrainian identity. Maria Lvova-Belova has bragged about 750,000 Ukrainian children being forcibly transferred. Russian officials openly expressed their intent to have the transferred Ukrainian children educated in the Russian language, adopted into Russian families and turned into Russian citizens.

Save Ukraine has rescued 200 forcibly transferred children. We not only returned these children to Ukraine but also provided both physical and psychological support to help them heal from their traumas. Though each child's story is unique, we have heard several common themes from the experiences that tell us about life for hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children living in Russian-controlled territories or Russia itself.

We don't know how many of these children are unaccompanied, but we know that unaccompanied children are the most vulnerable to total identity erasure. We have heard again and again about the clear and systematic extraction of Ukrainian identity. Children are forced to listen to Russian propaganda and false narratives about Ukraine. Children are not allowed to speak the Ukrainian language. They are forced to attend Russian language, literature and history classes. Children are forced to listen to the Russian anthem regularly. Teenagers are recruited into Russia's youth military movements, and we have evidence that thousands of these kids are now soldiers fighting against Ukraine.

We know that just wearing blue or yellow or even close to blue and yellow is grounds for punishment. One boy was punished for wearing purple and yellow socks. A girl in a Russian re-education camp was punished for wearing a t-shirt with a Ukrainian flag, just a Ukrainian flag. A camp director cut the t-shirt into pieces while making a propaganda film.

How I'd like to hear from the children themselves. You will hear them soon.

I am a father. I have four children and I know that many of you are fathers and mothers and that you have hopes and dreams for your children's future. I know how to work to foster your children's identity. Ukrainian parents have this same dream for their children. We dream of having a safe, peaceful, prosperous country governed by the rule of law, a country where our children can thrive. Russia launched their full-scale invasion, but we haven't lost this dream.

We have a war to win. We have to win—

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

You have 10 more seconds.

[Mykola Kuleba]

With your support, we will win. We must win, because we know it's our children's right to be in Ukraine without fear of being persecuted and killed.

I am finishing.

I appeal to you today to use your voices to condemn the Russian forcible transfer of Ukrainian children as genocide and to pursue accountability for the perpetrators of this devastating crime.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Kuleba.

I would like suspend the meeting for a few seconds in order to do a test for another witness who was late and just arrived.

Now I would like to invite Ms. Kateryna Lytvynenko to take the floor for five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Kateryna Lytvynenko, Humanitarian Policy and Advocacy Manager, Save the Children]

Honourable chairman, vice-chairman and members of the subcommittee, members of Parliament and the international community, and colleagues, thank you for inviting Save the Children to speak today on such an important and complex issue as the forcible transfer of children from Ukraine to Russia.

The best place for children is with their families and their communities. In a humanitarian crisis, there is so much upheaval and uncertainty for children that it can be difficult to know if a child has an existing family, and even if they don't, it could be traumatic to move them out of the country and culture that they are familiar with.

That is why Save the Children believes efforts must be made to reunite unaccompanied children with their family members. All means should be used to trace and unite unaccompanied children with their families and local communities, accounting for their best interests.

We don't know the exact number of children affected by the forced transfers from Ukraine to Russia since February 2022. A range of numbers have been provided by the officials in Russia and Ukraine, who reference from 2,000 children to 20,000 confirmed cases respectively.

We know that some of these children are in Russia. Some of them are in non-government-controlled areas of Ukraine. Some of the children have come from institutions and some not, which complicates the understanding of the guardianship of these children and the reunification mechanisms.

This is a complex situation that requires complex solutions and clear prioritization of the needs of the children in line with the principle of their best interests.

Although we cannot say for certain the scale of the issue and how many children have been affected, we do know that as time passes, the situation becomes increasingly complex for every single child. Canada can play a big role in finding a solution. The cases of many of these children may be complicated, but that does not absolve anyone of the responsibility. It is crucial to support accountability efforts and ensure that all accountability mechanisms include child expertise.

As accountability processes continue, diplomatic efforts must be directed towards finding solutions and protection for these children in the meantime. To date, the most effective way to reunite children with their families in Ukraine has been through the grassroots efforts of civil society organizations. They help families trace their children and help the parents and legal guardians to take a long and dangerous journey to Russia or to non-government-controlled territories of Ukraine to bring back children themselves. We know how long, difficult and sometimes unsuccessful these processes can be, since Save the Children supports such initiatives through our partners on the ground.

Given the absence of political dialogue between Ukraine and Russia, the mechanism of transferring children cannot be regulated, and legal measures for the return of children deported will remain ad hoc and limited in effectiveness and skill. Technical dialogue between ombuds institutions and relevant ministries in Ukraine and Russia needs to be established as a matter of urgency to fulfill children's rights and facilitate reunification with their legal guardians.

However, we understand that there may be a long wait for Ukraine and Russia to establish direct dialogue on this issue, and this is time that children don't have. Canada can play a role in finding a third country to facilitate the reunification process. We need to help find the states that would be able to promote further dialogue on this issue. We have seen successful cases of negotiating prisoner-of-war exchanges by third parties as well as the recent return of several children from Russia to Ukraine facilitated by Qatar.

I would like to again stress the importance of accounting for the best interests of the child during the processes of return and reunification. Serving the best interests of the child is only possible when we examine every single case. In order to do that, a centralized tracking and information management system is needed to ensure the whereabouts, guardianship status and well-being of each child.

International donors can prioritize funding child protection and tracing to support the restoration of family ties.

In closing, I would like to again thank you for the opportunity to address you today. I welcome any future opportunities to speak on this issue.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you.

Now I would like to invite Kseniia Koldin, Denys Berezhnyi, Anastasiia Motychak and Vladyslav Rudenko to speak. All together, you have 15 minutes to share.

The floor is yours.

[Kseniia Koldin, As an Individual]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

Greetings.

I am Kseniia. I'm 19 years old. I have a younger brother, Serhiy. He is 12 years old. We are children without parents.

Two years ago, we were in a foster family. That's when the aggression began. We were in one of the first cities—Vovchans’k—where Russian troops arrived. We lived in conditions of military action. We had to take cover. We had to hide. There was constant shelling in the streets. There were Russian patrols and Russian military machinery. Our lives changed.

In the summer of 2022, our teacher recommended persuasively and intensely that we had to go and study in Russia. Most parents agreed to those proposals because they didn't want to have conflicts with occupational authorities. That's how we arrived in Russia.

At the same time, my brother was taken to a camp in the Krasnodar region with the pretext of a health scan. It was to be for a brief period, but it actually was a very long period.

After two months, I was expelled for my pro-Ukrainian position from a housing facility at the college where I was studying. I didn't want to take a Russian passport. I didn't take a proposal for free housing. After all this happened, I met someone and I stayed with that person.

At this time, my brother stayed in Russia. He was eventually placed with a foster family. During that time, I knew where he was. At the end of the winter, I was in a tough psychological place or mental place, and I knew that I wanted to go back to Ukraine, but I didn't know how to achieve that. I started to look at the possibilities for how to get back to Ukraine. I promised myself that I would go back only with my brother.

With a person I knew from my hometown, I contacted the social services of my city, and I found out about the Save Ukraine organization. They started to help me plan the process of getting back to my homeland. I understood that they were the people who would help me to come back. When I had all the papers and I was able to come, and when my brother had the papers, Russians started to pressure him, saying that he should not go back to Ukraine, that there was a war and that Ukrainians are Nazis and that he would be better off in Russia.

I was told that my brother did not want to go back, which really surprised me. I was really worried that I would not be able to take him with me, but I got myself collected and I went to where he was. Once I was there, I understood that he really did not want to go back. We spent three hours talking to each other. I was trying to explain to him that if he did not go, then we would not see each other and we would not be able to be together as a family. Then he was asked whether or not he wanted to go with me and he said yes.

After a few days at the borders of Russia and Belarus, we were not allowed to say that we were going back to Ukraine, because we would not be allowed to return. We had a few days of an exhausting trip. We were worried that we would not get back, that we would have to stay in Russia, but we still managed to come back to Ukraine. Then we were in a Save Ukraine centre, where we were provided with medical and psychological assistance.

Right now, my brother is in foster care with a great Ukrainian family. He has his own room, which he's really happy about. I work in the Save Ukraine organization and I try to work on saving the children who were forcibly transferred to Russia and had to live under occupational Russian authorities.

I know that Ukraine will triumph in the war and that Russia will be punished for all of its crimes. I hope that no more children will be forced to become Russian.

Thank you.

[Denys Berezhnyi, As an Individual]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

My name is Denys. I am 18 years old now. During the occupation of my city of Kherson, I was taken to Crimea against my will.

Military officers came to my apartment and said, “We don't care whether you want to go or not, but you will still go.” My parents were shocked. They could not argue with armed officers.

We were then taken on a school bus to the Kherson river port. They were saying we were going to a camp for two weeks and then we'd come back. We were taken to Oleshky, where we waited for a bus for three and a half hours.

The camp leader was formerly in the Ukrainian special forces. His name is Valery Astakhov and he fled in 2014. He kept saying that Russia was better than Ukraine. He was saying that here in the camp, if you said something bad, you would have to walk back to your home.

I am a diabetic. I went to the infirmary and said, “I'm almost out of insulin.” I was told, “Come back when you are completely out of insulin.” After a month, I was really feeling bad because I had no more insulin, and an ambulance took me to an ICU in Yevpatoria. It took several hours to transport me there. I spent two or three days in the intensive care unit, and then I was taken to Simferopol for three weeks so that I could get insulin and medical care.

In February 2023, all students had to be sent to study in Crimea. I was sent to study a year earlier as a machinery operator. I did not want to study, but I was forced to. I ended up in the naval technological college in the city of Kerch. I studied there until the end of the school year.

I was constantly told to get a Russian passport. I kept saying I didn't want a Russian passport. I didn't want to receive one.

A friend of mine called me and said there was an opportunity to go back home, that there was an organization called Save Ukraine that helps children go back home.

I called the hotline from a Russian number. I called Save Ukraine and I provided them with all the information I had to be able to go back home. I said that my parents couldn't come and pick me up. Together with Save Ukraine, we started to arrange power of attorney for the mother of a friend of mine. When I knew someone was coming to pick me up, I was so happy. I didn't even know what to do.

At the border checkpoints, we were interrogated by the Russian security services. They were checking our phones. When I saw the word “Ukraine”, I just picked up my heavy bag and shouted, “Glory to Ukraine”, because I understood I was finally home.

Thank you.

[Anastasiia Motychak, As an Individual]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

Hello. My name is Anastasiia. I am 16 years old, and I'm from the city of Kherson. I had to spend four months in temporarily occupied Crimea without my family and without the opportunity to go home.

How did that happen? During the Russian occupation of Kherson, we were actively offered a so-called holiday in the camps in Crimea. My mom did not want to let me go, but a teacher in the college where I was studying insisted. She said, “It's nice there. There's no war there.” Of course, when you're under shelling every day, you're worried and afraid every minute of every day, and we were told everything was quiet over there, so my mom ended up agreeing.

We were told that the conditions in the camp were nice. When we came to the camp, there were cockroaches everywhere, in our closets and in the canteen. We had to sleep on dirty, smelly sheets and pillows. Apart from that, it looked like a regular summer camp, but then it changed after a few weeks. We were forced to learn and sing the Russian national anthem each week at a certain time. If we refused, we were admonished for it, and we were told that we were ungrateful.

We were forbidden to speak Ukrainian and show our identity. If we showed that we were from Ukraine, we were harassed. At each event, children from temporarily occupied Crimea had to shout “Glory to Russia”, while Ukrainians were told they had Nazis in their homeland and that it was the Ukrainian armed forces that were shelling peaceful cities.

It was really intolerable, and after my mother asked Ukrainian volunteers for help, she said that she would come and pick me up. I was extremely happy. I was very hopeful that I would see my mom.

It took her 15 days to get to me. She had to go through Poland, Belarus and Moscow, and we went back the same way.

Right now, I live in the Hope and Healing Center. I go to school and I dream of the day the war ends.

Thank you.

[Vladyslav Rudenko, As an Individual]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

Hello. My name is Vladyslav and I'm 17 years old.

Today my mom, Tetiana, is here. She went through all the horrors with me, and she can tell you a lot.

I was taken on October 7 to Yevpatoriya, to the camp called Druzhba, or “Friendship”. They imposed a pro-Russian position on me, and I was annoyed by it. At some point, I took the Russian flag off the flagpole, and I was put in a punishment cell for a week. I spent a week with no communication and no phone. Nobody was allowed to go in and speak with me. I had suicidal thoughts in there.

After that, I was taken to the Kherson region, to the Lazurne village. I spent six months there. I was playing soccer with the other boys, and a Chechen officer came up and said, “Where are the girls?” I told him where they were. He went back. He spoke with the girls. Then he came up to me, because at one point I said, “Our girls are not suitable for you.” When he tried to approach me.... I did sports, so I tried to resolve everything peacefully. He started moving towards me, and I understood he had more advantages than I did. He was stronger. He could even kill me and say it was due to my pro-Ukrainian position. After that, I fled home.

My friend was supposed to go home in two days. His mom was coming to pick him up, so he asked me to give him a tattoo. When his mom came, they took everybody in the camp into a room and videotaped us. They made us take off all our clothing except for the underwear. They made us videotape apologies for this tattoo.

Then they found a message on my phone where my sister jokingly called me a separatist. I was taken away to an unknown location. I spent 20 minutes there. He said that if I ever wrote anything in Ukrainian or to Ukrainians, he would speak to me in a whole different manner. I heard screams. After that, he showed me a photo of my father. My father is a soldier in the armed forces of Ukraine. He said I cannot write to my father at all.

When you're in Russia in the occupied territory, you have no rights. You can't do what you want. You can't do the right thing. You cannot admit you're Ukrainian. You cannot say you love Ukraine.

Right now, I want to do professional sports.

Thank you for listening to me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Now I would like to invite Mr. Yevgen Mezhevoj to take the floor for five minutes, please.

[Yevgen Mezhevoj, As an Individual]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

Hello. My name is Yevgen Mezhevoj. I was born in Ukraine and grew up in Ukraine, in Mariupol. I'm 40 years old.

At the beginning of 2016, I went to Chernivtsi, because things were not very safe in my hometown. I joined the armed forces of Ukraine. Until 2019, I was a serviceman in the armed forces of Ukraine.

Then, after a while, my wife left me alone with three children. After that, I stayed in Yavoriv.

After my contract was done, I returned to Mariupol and continued to work at the metal plant. I also branched out into a small business. On February 24, I was still working at the plant. I went to my children and I saw the situation at home. We packed up and we went to take shelter.

Until April 7, we went from one bomb shelter to another. We had to drink water from radiators and fire hydrants or anything that we could use to get some water. I did have a small business that was linked to catering, so I had some food left over.

On April 7, near the number 4 hospital in Mariupol, Russian military came to our bomb shelter and said that we had to evacuate because Chechen units were coming to clear the area and that this clearing process would be extremely rough.

I decided that, yes, we had to evacuate. We did evacuate to the town of Vynohradne. The children were fed there. They said that we had to keep moving further because this displaced persons camp was over capacity. They told us to move further. Everybody was indignant because many people were wounded. Some were elderly and some had heavy bags.

They took us to a checkpoint. Then they started to search our things, our documents, and everything was checked. No place was left unturned. They saw my papers and understood that I was formerly in the military. I was told to find someone who would pick up my children. They told me that I would be there, and I asked how long I would be there. They said that I could be there for two hours or I could be there for seven years.

I found someone to watch my children. They were placed on a bus, and they left to some place I didn't know.

Then I was interrogated and I was taken to various detention places. I ended up in Olenivka. I was beaten in Olenivka very roughly. In a one-person cell, there were 20 people. The cells were overflowing. Then, at the end of May, I was called to the warden, and I was told that I would be freed. On May 26, I was freed at 6 p.m. There were no buses, so I walked to Donetsk on foot, because Donetsk is where my documents were, including my passports and my children's passports. I walked through the night. I was in Donetsk the following morning.

I was told that my children had gone to Moscow on June 26 to a special camp for rest and recreation that was run by the office of the president. I was very nervous and anxious. I was stressed. I demanded that they give me a telephone number so I could communicate with my children.

I was able to speak with them. On June 15, my son called me. He said that two women were there, saying their camp stay was almost over and they have to place them somewhere. They were told two options, which were either go to a foster family or go to an orphanage—a residential school. He asked what they should do.

I said that I had to talk to him before making a decision. I said that maybe it's better to go to a residential school. I asked how many days it would be before they would be placed. They told me five days.

I had no money. Then, through friends, I saw a website of volunteers who helped with going back to Ukraine. I called the volunteers and told them about my situation. They started to help me remotely to go to my children. They paid for all my trips. They me helped me resolve the issues that arose.

Once I was three or four hours from Moscow, we wrote an official letter to the office of the president of Russia, demanding that my children be returned to me.

Yes, there were issues. We were solving them remotely with the team of volunteers—

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Excuse me; I gave you an extra minute and a half. Please wrap it up.

Go ahead.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm just wondering if it's possible for us to let our witnesses have as much time as they need.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Does the committee agree?

Go ahead.

[Yevgen Mezhevoj]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows: ]

Then we were in Latvia. Now I'm with my children and everything is okay.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

I thank all the witnesses for their comments.

We will now go to questions from members of the subcommittee.

I would like to invite Madam Rosemarie Falk to take the floor for seven minutes.

The floor is yours, please.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I would like to thank each of our witnesses, not only for being willing to share their stories today but also for their resilience and for bravery in coming forward to expose the realities of the war in Ukraine. I want to thank you so much for that.

I am a mother as well. It is difficult for me to even imagine the suffering of being forcibly separated from your children. Just from listening here, I'm incredibly grateful for the work that Save Ukraine and Save the Children are doing to help reunite families.

I also just want to say that I'm so sorry. I am so sorry for the hardships and the evil that you each have had to endure throughout this whole process.

Again, thank you for sharing your vulnerability and the reality you each have experienced in these situations.

I would like to focus on the parents, if that's okay for right now.

I would like to ask this of Tetiana, if possible.

How did you find out that your son was taken to Russia?

[Tetiana Bodak, As an Individual]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

My son called me and told me that he had been taken from his home and that he was in Oleshky, which was formerly Tsiurupynsk. It's on the left bank of the Kherson region. They were waiting for buses to take them to Crimea.

It was a scandal. I asked how they could do it without even my knowledge. Who took him from the house? How did he end up on the left bank, leaving for Crimea?

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Were you able to communicate with him regularly, or was there a lag in communication from that initial time?

[Tetiana Bodak]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

While he was on the road, there was still an ability to talk to him, but then there were interruptions in communication for about two months and I had no idea what was happening with him. After two months, he contacted me and he told me that he was in Crimea and that he was in a detention facility. He didn't tell me the reason he was in a detention facility; only later did I find out the reason.

From that point on, we were able to communicate and to write to each other every day, checking with each other on how things were and looking to the possibility of bringing him home.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

I can't even put the words to that. I think you really speak to the determination of a mom to be reunited. It is just so wonderful.

I understand that you travelled to be reunited. Do you feel comfortable in speaking about some of the fears you had when travelling?

[Tetiana Bodak]

[Witness spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:]

The scariest thing was when I arrived to pick up my son. It was in the village of Lazurne, on the left bank of the city of Kherson. It was the most difficult part, because I was taken to a basement for interrogation. They were putting me through a lie detector. I was detained for 24 hours and I had no idea what was going to happen to me or whether I was going to see my son again. I didn't know whether I would be able to return or whether I would be able to see him again.

Also, it was scary when they told me that they would take me to my son. I was afraid to go and sit with them in their car, because they placed a hood on my head so I wouldn't be able to see where they were taking me. They told me to bend my head so I wouldn't see the street. They were all carrying weapons. I knew that they could do anything they wanted, but thank God, they took me to my son.

For five days, they wouldn't allow us to leave. For five days, we stayed in the village of Lazurne. We were lucky because there was a very nice family we were able to stay with during that period, and they were helping us.

After that five-day period, they allowed us to leave, but only after we made a video where I was supposed to say that Save Ukraine was a very bad organization and that they were stealing children and that Russia is a wonderful country. Only after I made that video did they let us go.

We didn't tell them that we were going back to Ukraine. We told them that we were going to Poland, that our final destination was Poland, that we were not returning to Ukraine.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you very much for sharing that.

I know that my time is running out, but I just want to say to Vladyslav—he doesn't have his headpiece on right now—that you are very courageous and you are very loved. I am so glad to hear of your reunification story with your mother. You are strong and courageous.

Thank you so much, again, for just being vulnerable and sharing with us here in Canada what is going on in the kidnapping of Ukrainian children by Russia.

Thank you.