Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Cunningham, you talked about Canadian businesses doing business in Hong Kong and the importance of them being aware. Do you think Canada and Canadian business organizations are doing enough to educate Canadian businesses about the risks and threats of doing business in Hong Kong right now?

[James Cunningham]

Absolutely not. It's not a Canadian issue or problem. It's a problem in the United States. It's a problem in Europe. It's a problem in Asia. It's a problem for everybody who is participating in the fallacy that things are still the same in Hong Kong as they were five years ago. That's just not the case.

We all—we in the advocacy community and also in Parliament and governments—first need to join in clarifying the perils that now exist for doing business in Hong Kong and what the potential costs might be. The risk factors are now much greater than they were a couple of years ago. Governments aren't doing a good job of this. I think it came up here last week that one of our congressmen, Congressman Gallagher, has talked about businesses wearing a “golden blindfold” doing business in Hong Kong and China.

As I said in my statement, our vision of what is happening there has been blurred by both economic means or goals and our own political hopes over the years. There is literally no protection now, or any more protection now, that exists in Hong Kong than exists in mainland China for people who are doing business. One of our means of bringing pressure to bear is to highlight that fact and to get people to realize it.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Can you speak about how irresponsible it is for businesses sending their employees over, given the risks they're putting those employees under?

[James Cunningham]

The first thing they need to do is accept that those risks exist and then draw the consequences. It's not politically or economically realistic to think that all these business connections are just going to go away. That's not going to happen. But it should be more apparent to business leaders and chambers of commerce, who have been very bad about this, to make it clear that what's happening in Hong Kong now is a real signal of problems ahead if it doesn't change.

I'm not saying this should necessarily be done in public, but this is what every senior official of a government or a corporation or an investment firm or a bank should be telling people in China: If you keep doing what you're doing, this will increase the risk for us. It will make it more and more difficult for us to have the kind of economic relationships that we've had in the past.

That is, I think, the reality. It's the thing that people don't want to talk about but need to talk about.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

One thing that Sébastien Lai, Jimmy Lai's son, told this committee last meeting really stuck with me. He told us that his father would often say that fear was the cheapest weapon. I think we can see that in the press landscape in Hong Kong lately. Some organizations have gotten shut down. Others have chosen to shutter because they saw that happening. Some journalists have been refused visas and denied entry. Others have moved their work overseas, because they saw the persecution and prosecution of peers like Jimmy Lai.

We've heard that the national security law could theoretically apply to actions or publications made anywhere in the world, not just in Hong Kong. We've seen dual citizens like Jimmy Lai denied their consular rights, because their dual citizenship isn't recognized. It makes me worry about the security and mental health of Canadians with heritage, family or other ties in Hong Kong.

Mr. Almoghraby, can you speak about the impact of the law on them and also the risks to international journalists who travel to Hong Kong? We know that some Hong Kong-based journalists have moved abroad, but I'm wondering if this is still affecting what they feel they can say and how that impacts the volume, the tone or the content of international coverage from them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

You have 15 seconds, please.

[Zein Almoghraby]

Very quickly, there is severe damage that happens to the diaspora, to the community and also people who have escaped Hong Kong, if they're going to stay away from being networked and being able to do what they're supposed to do just because economically, at the beginning, it seems not profitable. In Canada are they going to report on Hong Kong? That would be a severe problem and a huge mistake that we are going to commit. We have to take that into consideration and keep it in mind.

The changes for other people are spreading all over. It's just a matter of time when we're going to find fewer and fewer people going in without their even being denied. It's going to be the “I don't have to do it; you will do it by yourself.” That's the kind of situation. This is why we need to give some attention also to the people who are in Canada or elsewhere and cannot return to Hong Kong.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Almoghraby.

We have approximately six minutes. Would you like to have one minute and a half each, or would you like to give the witnesses who want to a chance to explain further?

What would you prefer, please?

Okay. I invite Madam Damoff for one minute and a half, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Now I know how the Bloc feels when they have a short time.

Mr. Cheung, my question is for you.

Just before you were put in jail, you did a broadcast with an organization to talk about how the national security law had changed things in Hong Kong overnight. I'm just wondering if that organization is still in existence.

[Fernando Cheung]

I'm sorry. Which organization are you talking about? Could you name the organization?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I don't know the name of it. You had apparently done and interview with them just prior to your arrest in 2020.

[Fernando Cheung]

There are many journalistic organizations that have gone defunct since I spoke with them and the enactment of the national security law. I suspect the one that I spoke to is already diminished.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

Can you describe the sentiment in Hong Kong towards the national security law? Has it shifted since it was adopted, or are people just afraid to speak out so you don't know?

[Fernando Cheung]

At the beginning, nobody really knew what was happening. The law was imposed by Beijing without any consultation or even transparency. The law became law, and we knew nothing about it until that moment. Then in the following couple of months, people began to understand the severity of it.

Of course, by now that is a big stick above everybody's head. There are hundreds of people being prosecuted. People are afraid. Like my previous colleagues mentioned about Jimmy Lai's comments, fear is among everyone in Hong Kong. People—

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Cheung. We have to give others a chance.

I invite Mr. Majumdar for one minute and a half, please.

[Shuv Majumdar, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

In Canada, we are encountering intimidation, interference, coercion, elite capture and corruption. Nowhere across the Government of Canada is there a single place that assesses the threat from Beijing for all aspects of the government.

Could our witnesses provide a sense as to what may be some of the best practices they've seen in the democratic world that shape an understanding of the Communist threat?

That's for whomever wants it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Go ahead, Your Excellency.

[James Cunningham]

First, let me say that's a persistent problem. The dimension of the confrontation is very broad and multi-faceted.

One of the things that our Congress tried to do to deal with that was to establish a select committee in the Congress, in the House of Representatives, headed by Chairman Gallagher. It was a bipartisan committee with a Democrat co-chair. Their mandate was to look at these kinds of issues on where the problems and threats were and what might be done about them from a holistic perspective.

I personally think it's been quite effective. Not only are they very much interested in what's going on in Hong Kong, but they have had a real impact on focusing on issue after issue after issue and drawing out some of the reality of the complexity of the issues that we need to deal with when it comes to China.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Your Excellency.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, the floor is yours for a minute and a half.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Rogers, how accessible is the Hong Kong diaspora media to the population living on Hong Kong soil, and to what extent is the Hong Kong population aware of the facts regarding Jimmy Lai?

[Benedict Rogers]

Very briefly, they are still largely aware.

There are individual websites, including Hong Kong Watch's own website, that have been blocked, but the great firewall of China has not been imposed on Hong Kong yet. Twitter, Facebook and other websites are accessible.

I think people in Hong Kong are still very aware at the moment.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Cheung, representing Canada-Hong Kong Link, I have a little time left to address you: if a person living in Hong Kong provides or demonstrates support for Jimmy Lai, what might happen to them?

[Fernando Cheung]

They could be arrested. They could be prosecuted for sedition or they could be treated as a conspirator.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you so much to all the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

I now invite Mr. Gord Johns to take the floor for a minute and a half.