Evidence of meeting #50 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was georgia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much. I'm going to begin with Professor Sahadeo.
What levers, if any, does Canada have to influence the outcomes or put international pressure on the Dream party, the ruling party in Georgia?
Prof. Jeff Sahadeo
It's a great question.
The first thing we can do, as we heard in the previous speaker's statement, is to show our support for the protesters in Georgia to make it clear that we do not tolerate violent actions by the security services. I know that we don't have an embassy on the ground there, but we can observe very carefully, and we can condemn.
The key actors here, I think, are the security services. How much violence would they be willing to use if Georgian Dream orders them to? Traditionally, that's the way governments have fallen: The security services decide that enough is enough in terms of attacking their own people. I think that if we can keep the focus on the demonstrators, on support for them, and on awareness and condemnation of the security services, and make it clear to the leadership, to the security services, that western countries are watching them....
Also, the other key element in this is the individual members of the Georgian Dream party, not the leadership. I think that one of the reasons Ivanishvili came out with that speech is to harden some of the Georgian Dream members who are not so excited about this law, especially after it has had these massive protests, and would be willing to shift the law.
Now, what's going to happen is that the law likely is going to be adopted. The president can then veto this law. It's ceremonial. The president will veto it and send it back with modifications and suggestions. That is a time when we can start to approach Georgian Dream members and talk to them about the way this law might be modified to make it more like a western-style law: They can keep their law if they want but take off the edges of it. I think we could do that, and that would allow elections to be held fairly. I think there is a role for Canada to play.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I'll put the same question to Professor Dembińska.
Could you answer succinctly, please?
Full Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
Our role in Canada is rather limited. I would repeat what Professor Sahadeo said. It's Europe. Europe has many more carrots and sticks right now than Canada may have. Although, because we are in NATO, we could play that card.
The importance is to put pressure to show our commitment to democracy in Georgia, etc., but it is much more about internal affairs than about external affairs.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Ambassador, do you have any reflections on ways in which we might be able to pull levers to help support people on the ground, the popular movements that are calling for better democracy there?
Senior Research Fellow, Russia and Eurasia Programme, Chatham House
I agree with the point about the need to protect protesters. I think they're the really vulnerable ones. Consistent and incremental international pressure does work.
The Georgian Dream is not as susceptible as some other governments were in Georgia, but it is still important, and people hear it, so I think that should be maintained.
I also agree with Professor Dembińska that NATO is an area for Canada to look at.
In addition to that, it's very important to send a clear message to those who are destroying democracy in Georgia that there will be some consequences. That should be coordinated. I think it's one thing for individual countries to do it, but it's another thing to do it in a coordinated manner. Canada and the U.S., Georgia's close partners who have supported Georgia for years—and I have seen Canadian funding for many years for extremely important projects—have ambassadors on the ground or delegations from the capitals who should send a unanimous message on what the consequences of this will be.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you, Ambassador.
I want to thank the witnesses for their testimony and their participation in our study.
Thank you all for your participation; it's highly appreciated.
I am asking the committee members if they agree not to go in camera, so as not to lose two or three minutes.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
The committee will now proceed to the consideration of matters related to committee business, Mr. Majumdar.
I remind you that the deadline for submitting witnesses for the study on the current human rights situation in Iran is Wednesday, May 8, at 5 p.m.
A budget of $7,500 for the study on Georgia's draft law on foreign agents was distributed to all members of the subcommittee.
Is it the pleasure of the subcommittee to adopt the budget?
(Motion agreed to)
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Now, the subcommittee will resume consideration of Mr. Majumdar's motion that was proposed on Tuesday, April 30 and distributed to everyone on Wednesday, May 1.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
I wasn't aware that we were doing committee business, but if we are, I think that we should do it in camera, as we always do. I thought that we were just doing the budget. I didn't think we were going to be discussing studies.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
I believe we will be out of time.
What do you think, Mr. Majumdar?
Conservative
Shuv Majumdar Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
We agreed that we would discuss this item today, but we don't have time to go in camera, so we can push it to the next meeting, in good faith, knowing that you've had a week to consider this motion. I just want to make sure we get due consideration.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
On a point of order, I'd like to clarify two things, Mr. Chair.
First of all, would the members be willing to do a short statement on everything that we heard, for the committee to release? Could we ask the analysts to draft something? That would be subject to your approval.
Second, you mentioned Sudan. I want to confirm that all the members are in favour of slotting that in a few weeks from now.
Thanks.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
Anita said that we should discuss committee business in camera, and those are both committee business items. We've moved on from one agenda item to a different agenda item, and we ought—
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
In fairness, when we have witnesses and a committee that gets delayed by votes, we could get members to sub in for us so that we don't have to cut our meetings short, Chair. I think we have resources to six o'clock. Normally we get a full two hours after votes. Maybe we can all try to get subs if we're not able to stay for the full two hours. I think it would be fair to the study and to the witnesses we get.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
That's really not the case. Traditionally, committees that are due to end at 5:30 end at 5:30 by default. I don't know where this new idea comes from.
We all have calendars. We can agree by unanimous consent to extend, but it's not by default that it goes two hours. If the government decides to have votes, we have votes, and committee time ends at 5:30.
I have 20 constituents who I'm having dinner with at 5:30. I'm going to be late, and I need to be there, but that's not my fault.
The committee time is 5:30. It's 5:30 right now.