Evidence of meeting #7 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ukraine.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Ms. Valko, I'm terribly sorry to interrupt. We have heard from the sound technicians. They are asking that you move the mike closer to your mouth, please.
Crisis Response Manager, International Partnership for Human Rights
Thank you.
It is very hard to choose the story to tell you, because we have a lot of evidence. I think I will use this opportunity to say, on behalf of the occupied south of Ukraine, because it's my motherland, and my parents now in occupation.... My father, on Sunday, went to the peaceful protest to support the cities of Ukraine, and they started to shoot the peaceful protests. The question about those people who were killed...and you saw those pictures in Bucha. That's happened all over Ukraine. All over Ukraine, we saw kidnapping and forced disappearance and terrorizing, using torture against leaders, against mayors, against journalists and against civilians, who do not have any position or interest and just were going to take some water to their family—to the basement.
On Kherson oblast, my native oblast, we have confirmed the enforced disappearance of at least 23 activists, and not all of them have been found already. Some people were found dead, like the head of village Motyshyn. She was found dead. She was kidnapped, together with her husband, and she was found in one of their mass graves in Bucha with traces of torture on her body. All people in occupied territories right now are terrified that this terror will continue in their cities and that this terror will be increasing.
Conservative
Crisis Response Manager, International Partnership for Human Rights
I'm Svitlana Valko.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
No, the gal you were just talking about who was tortured. They found her body. What was her name again?
Crisis Response Manager, International Partnership for Human Rights
Her name was Olga—
Crisis Response Manager, International Partnership for Human Rights
Yes, Olga Sukhenko and Igor Sukhenko, her husband.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Mrs. Pokalchuk, do you have a statement you want to make on this as well?
Executive Director, Ukraine, Amnesty International
Yes, but I think my colleagues have already raised many issues and I don't know what to add. Maybe I'll quickly say that, honestly, I think you understand now that there are more and more stories and all of them are horrible—literally horrible. There are so many things.
Maybe the only thing I want to raise now is about the older people and people with disabilities whom I already mentioned in my previous talk. This is an issue, and there is a catastrophic situation with the older people and people with disabilities in the different cities that are under siege by Russian forces or that are occupied. We've been gathering evidence from many people in many different cities and villages, and all of them are saying that older people are literally dying without proper medicine or any medicine, without food and without water.
A couple of days ago, I documented the story of a person who was 87 years old. She was evacuated from Izium, and I think you know where it is. She's very old and she's alone. She was evacuated and she doesn't have money. When my colleague was in her house, the only thing that was in her fridge was one egg. She had no money, no medicine, no food—only one egg.
Liberal
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I very much appreciate our three witnesses appearing this evening. I don't know what time it is exactly in Ukraine, but I assume is sometime in the middle of the night. Yet they are joining us to tell us about what is happening over there.
We learn about the war mostly through written media and social media. But you are providing us with first-hand testimony by appearing here today. I thank you very much for your presence.
Ms. Matviichuk, a number of sanctions have been imposed on Russia to try to end this war. One such sanction was Russia's exclusion from the SWIFT financial system. A number of countries have exerted pressure, but the war has unfortunately continued, and we have no idea when it will end.
Do you think the sanctions the west has imposed on Russia have had an impact or will have one? Are even more sanctions needed and, if so, what sanctions should be imposed on Russia?
Head of the Board, Center for Civil Liberties
Thank you very much for this important question.
Sanctions imposed are a start; however, there are not enough effective sanctions to, first, cut Russia's ability to continue this war and, second, force Russia—in particular, its top officials—to pay a high price for its continuing aggression. This is not happening.
If we look in detail of the sanctions imposed, we will see their half-heartedness. The Russian central bank says, as a result of sanctions, the Russian economy will shrink by up to 8%, which is nothing compared to the atrocities and destruction Russia has been carrying out in Ukraine.
Only a few Russian banks have been cut off from the SWIFT system. It's only a few, not all. These imposed limitations didn't affect Sberbank, Russia's largest bank. A result is that Russia is great at stabilizing the ruble, especially given that gas and oil prices have risen and western democracies have not yet imposed a full embargo on the energy trade with Russia.
Another important aspect is that Russia continues to receive large amounts of cash through energy exports. Bloomberg economic experts expect Russia to receive nearly $321 billion from energy exports this year. This is an increase of more than a third from last year. That would be sufficient for Russia to temporarily withstand the negative consequences of the recently introduced sanctions before the impacts of longer-term sanctions become visible. A new energy embargo on Russian oil, natural gas, petroleum products and LNG is badly needed.
I think the problem is not that western democracies don't know what has to be done in order to stop the ability of the Russian economy to feel this war. The problem is whether western democracies will leave their comfort zone and take the necessary steps.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you.
Over the past month, we have talked a lot about receiving refugees in Canada, and we are pressuring the government to arrange an airlift to enable us to go get refugees from the countries bordering Ukraine.
However, we are not sure that the people who are in the neighbouring countries will want to come to Canada, which is across an ocean after all. We think refugees will perhaps go to countries closer to their own, in Europe.
What are the current priorities related to the conflict in Ukraine? Taking into account what you just said, how can western countries pressure Russia to end this conflict?
Head of the Board, Center for Civil Liberties
First of all, it's important to name things correctly. It's not a “conflict”, but a “war”, with Russia against Ukraine.
Several things have to be done. First, we ask that Ukraine be provided with fighter jets, air defence, tanks, anti-missile systems and other weapons.
Second, we need economic sanctions that will cut Russia's ability to continue the war.
Third, this war has an informational dimension, where disinformation, according to Russian Defence Minister Shoigu, has become another type of weapon. We need assistance to help Ukraine fight disinformation.
Fourth, Canada can build a coalition to set up an international hybrid tribunal to prosecute and convict Russian war criminals.
Fifth, binational assistance is needed to support Ukraine.
Sixth, we need international organizations to ensure an international presence and monitoring in war zone, occupied cities, and the evacuation of civilians. We need them on the ground to fulfill their mandates and to work with us, not to be in Geneva, Vienna, the Hague and other safe places.
We need you to stand with us in this dramatic time.
Thank you.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Ms. Valko, your hand is raised. Is that because you want to answer the same question?
Crisis Response Manager, International Partnership for Human Rights
I want to add that I totally agree with Oleksandra. I want to share with you a fact that impressed me so much. Those troops who left the Kyiv region went to Belarus, went to the post office, and sent home two tonnes of Ukrainian goods which they looted from of the houses of Bucha, Hostomel, and Moshchun. Two tonnes. A lot of them are already identified. Those people are really in need of those goods, so they took similar things, like blenders, toys for kids, some clothes, and furniture. Two tonnes of goods from our homes were sent to Russian families in the far east. I think economic sanctions are the key in this work.
I want to add that Canada is also able to help us fight impunity in the longer-term, and to help use the possibilities of universal jurisdiction for different countries to open the case against those who committed those war crimes and crimes against humanity.
I totally agree regarding the presence of international organizations. We were at the OSCE meeting last week in Vienna. The OSCE monitoring mission in Ukraine was the largest in the history of the OSCE. It left the country a week before the war. The sense was that with its presence, what kind of monitoring and security could it provide for Ukraine?
We need a stronger position against Russia, and stronger informational support about the truth of what is going on in the country.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much. I also want to thank the witnesses for what they have been able to share with us. Thank you for everything you are doing to document the crimes against humanity and the war crimes happening in your country. I'm so sorry this is happening.
Every member of the House of Commons today voted on a motion to acknowledge and name the things that are happening in your country as crimes against humanity and war crimes. Every member of Parliament of our House of Commons voted for further action and to do more to help the people of Ukraine than we have already done.
Today, I want to focus my questions on two things. First of all, how we can make this much worse for Vladimir Putin and the Russians? I want to talk a bit about the consequences. I also want to get some information from you on how we can help.
In terms of the consequences, obviously, the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court actually defines war crimes. We have article 8, and we have article 7, crimes against humanity. Clearly, these are tools we need to use.
I'd like some information from all of you. Perhaps I'll start with you, Ms. Pokalchuk. Regarding how these human rights abuses, war crimes, and crimes against humanity are being documented, how can Canada help with documentation and recording of those crimes, so that when it comes to the ICC, it is able to go forward?
Executive Director, Ukraine, Amnesty International
Thank you very much for this question.
What I wanted to mention during the previous question, I will answer now. I will cover both.
I would be very precise in my answer, but Ukraine was never prepared for the number of bodies that have to be examined now. We are now in a situation where we don't have enough fridges, and we don't have enough medical experts who can quickly do medical examination. I mean the forensic examinations. It's something very precise and detailed, I know, but it's quite important in answering your questions, because this documentation is proper. If the commendation will be in order, once we will have information about all of the bodies, it's something that will be the basis of our calls and for the whole work, whether it will be with the ICC, the International Court of Justice, or maybe other institutions that could be developed by countries one day to investigate what happened in Ukraine.
It's quite important right now to support Ukraine in this issue of forensic examination and fridges because, honestly, we have issues with the bodies of Ukrainians who were killed, or tortured, raped and killed. On the other hand, we have the bodies of Russian soldiers, and there's a big question of what we have to do with the dead bodies because we have to take DNA samples. There has to be a proper examination of dead bodies because it's a question of evidence. It's quite important for the future. As I said from the very beginning, Ukraine was never prepared for this. Our doctors and medical experts do their best and are working 24-7, but they're human beings. It is impossible because the number of bodies is huge.
I think it's something with which, if the Canadian government or Canadian people could support us, it would be a very big help.
Head of the Board, Center for Civil Liberties
I would like to focus on the possibilities of helping Ukraine bring the perpetrators to justice. I will start with the situation with the international court. The International Criminal Court has launched an investigation after a year-long break and only after the request of 39 countries. Its work is important, but international justice is delayed. Moreover, according to its policies, the ICC focuses exclusively on the top officials and selected specific cases. This means that thousands of perpetrators who have committed crimes with their own hands will not fall under its mandate. Therefore, in addition to the ICC, it's necessary to work in parallel on the applications of other legal mechanisms.
What can be done in addition? Canada could use the provision of its national legislation on universal jurisdiction to prosecute war criminals who have committed international crimes in Ukraine. Canada could initiate the creation of a coalition of states that would establish an international hybrid tribunal. This international hybrid tribunal could cover all international crimes committed during this war. It may, as well, have jurisdiction to address such a crime as aggression, which can't be considered by the International Criminal Court when it comes to Ukraine now.
Thank you.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you.
Ms. Valko, I see that your hand is up as well.