Evidence of meeting #13 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was uganda.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you.
Now I would like to invite Mr. Zuberi to take the floor for seven minutes, please.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for being here today, for your courage and for sharing the trauma and the violence that's happened to you. Strength to you. We appreciate you.
I want to first ask one of the witnesses who are joining us online. Mr. Nyeko, you were talking about social media and mainstream media and how there is othering that is happening. Can you describe that a bit more? Also, what can we do over here, and what can the international community do, in order to get that under control?
Senior Researcher, Human Rights Watch
What I was referring to was the climate around the time the Anti-Homosexuality Act was being debated in the Ugandan Parliament, and also shortly after it was passed, which was when there was heightened anti-LGBT rhetoric and sentiment that was actively being promoted and shared by several high-profile figures, including parliamentarians, including the President himself, and religious and cultural leaders.
In addition to the rhetoric, there was and has been impunity for the kinds of things that people were saying, which eventually led to attacks against LGBT people, both online and off-line. For example, Steven, who is a witness here today, experienced some of the violence that took place there, which I would attribute to the things that were being promoted and discussed online.
I think that—
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
I wanted to know if there were any particularly egregious platforms that stood out. For example, in the case of the Rohingya genocide, Facebook was discussed a lot as a vector. Were there any particular vectors that stood out during this period?
Senior Researcher, Human Rights Watch
Yes, there were. Specifically, TikTok was a major example from the people we interviewed and talked to. They faced a lot of hate speech on their accounts and also had their accounts removed. Activists who would be talking about and promoting LGBT rights had their accounts disabled without explanation. As well, X was a major platform for anti-LGBT rhetoric in Uganda. We've documented that and called on some of those companies to take concrete action.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Do you have any suggested reforms around that, around those two companies and others?
Senior Researcher, Human Rights Watch
Yes, we do. They definitely need to take steps to ensure better moderating of the rhetoric that comes onto those platforms, especially in local languages. Something that kept happening in Uganda, specifically with the Luganda language, was that people would post hate speech, and it wouldn't be removed or moderated. We do feel that it's important that those types of companies take steps to understand and moderate hate speech in local languages.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Do you have concern that it's still happening or that it can happen again in the future, even if it's not the case right now?
Senior Researcher, Human Rights Watch
Certainly, I think it's at risk of happening again. It was heightened during the time when the law was being debated and passed, but the point we want to stress is that because of the impunity around these issues, it's inevitably going to happen again when homosexuality is used in the Ugandan context as a political low-hanging fruit once again.
Yes, it's likely to be a cycle of violence and hate.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Certainly.
You did speak a bit about police entrapment and extortion of money, etc., and others have also. Do you want to elaborate before others contribute to this? Can you elaborate a bit on how queer people, LGBT people, were extorted and entrapped, etc.?
Senior Researcher, Human Rights Watch
We documented a number of cases of people who were lured into meetings with police officers, who would meet them on dating apps and say that they were gay and wanted to meet with, in the cases that we documented, other gay men. They would meet, and then, in the cases that we documented, the police officers detained those people and told them that if they didn't pay a sum of money, they would take them to jail, essentially, and charge them under the Anti-Homosexuality Act.
We also saw the same case with staff of non-governmental organizations. They would be rounded up and then told that they needed to pay a fee because they would be charged with promoting homosexuality under the Anti-Homosexuality Act. This was heightened around that time. I think it really stemmed from a lot of the misinformation that was being spread by government figures, and it was extremely harmful to the people who went through those experiences.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you.
We have about a minute left. Would anybody else like to contribute to the question that I asked?
Executive Director, The African Centre for Refugees in Ontario-Canada
I'll speak to the extortion.
In 2021, when a gay bar, the Ram Bar, was raided in Kampala, Uganda, a group of young LGBTQ people were taken to prison, but before even taking them, police were asking for money: “How much do you have so that we cannot take you?” People had to pay money not to be imprisoned.
When you go to prison, it means that you are going to be there for the rest of your life, or until a human rights activist comes to defend you, so many people fear going to prison. If they had some money, they had to give it. Personally, I had to send some money to the Happy Family Uganda organization to support individuals to not be taken to prison.
Liberal
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My sincere thanks to the witnesses for being with us for this important study. I'm especially grateful to the witnesses who have experienced horrific violence and are here to share their stories with us. Above all, I hope that the Canadian government will not simply leave this matter with the Subcommittee on International Human Rights but will listen to what you are here today to tell us.
Mr. Kabuye, a moment ago, another witness referred to your experience. You came out at the age of 18. Things really took a turn in 2023, when the act was being discussed, an act that basically made homophobia legal.
For the committee's benefit, could you tell us how things changed for the LGBTQ community in Ugandan society as of 2023? What did you see? Was the difference significant? Was the change swift?
As an Individual
As a grassroots activist and a person who was very vocal against the Anti-Homosexuality Act of 2023, and as a person who faced violence after my very strongly voiced opposition to the law, I would say that the law, first of all, highlighted state-sponsored homophobia, because major politicians—the President, the Speaker of Parliament, and many other big entities like the Ministry of Health—were out there championing support of the Anti-Homosexuality Act. This gave people empowerment. It gave people empowerment to go after people who were very vocal against the law, to go after the community itself. It was like a state-sponsored genocide, but a silent one.
A lot of things changed. Access to health care for the LGBTQ+ community became a liability. Homelessness in the community happened, because none of the people would let you rent a house if you were openly gay or lesbian or trans, because they feared being imprisoned, and then most of the parents.... As a person who was on the ground and running an organization that was helping out youth who were facing this situation, I worked hand in hand with different organizations and people, and I noticed that children were being chased away from home because parents feared being imprisoned. Friends were giving up their own friends and relatives to the police, sending them out to the police because they were in fear because of the law.
A lot of things changed. Life became very difficult for the LGBTQ+ community in Uganda after the law. Of course, these things were happening before the law, but they became more public. The situation became very dire after the passing of the law. Hopefully the world recognizes this and puts pressure on the Ugandan government so that this law will be repealed very soon.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Ssentongo, in your brief to the subcommittee, you said that LGBTQ people, especially those with HIV, have trouble accessing health care. For the subcommittee's benefit, could you talk more about that specific issue?
As an Individual
Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.
For health care, I would say that for all refugees in Gorom and Kakuma daily medical care is not available.
Access to medication is inadequate. I was in Kakuma a couple of years ago, and it was a struggle to get medication if you got sick. Also, for typhoid and malaria, it's pretty hard for you. You cannot access the UNHCR hospitals. If you get there, you're not treated very nicely. You're going to be served last. They're going to keep you in the line for a couple of hours. There are scorpions in Kakuma. It happens frequently in the rain season. Let's say you've been stung by a scorpion and they keep you in the line for a couple of hours. Just imagine what's going to happen. You're probably going to die. This doesn't happen to only one person. It happens often.
Access to medication is pretty difficult for them. They don't access public health care, and there are no private hospitals. If there is care, it's in the town, and they don't have enough supports to get to the private health care. It needs a lot. To get to the private health care, there are what we call “roadblocks” in the road. Refugees are kept in the camp. You're not allowed access to the town. The police will be there as a roadblock, and they'll block you from accessing medication.
They don't have enough medication in the camp.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you so much.
Mr. Backé, you wanted to say more about the choke point in Kenya during your opening statement. You touched on it in response to a question, but is there anything you'd like to add?
President, Reaching Out Assisting Refugees
Yes. Thank you very much for that question.
There are three things that can be done that could help to push or encourage Kenya to give the opportunity for LGBTQ refugees to leave their country and get to safe countries.
The Canadian government should diplomatically urge Kenya to decouple the issuance of exit permits from their domestic refugee status determination process. That could be done and would be really helpful. Canada does its own refugee status determination for all refugees. If Kenya doesn't recognize queer identity for its own asylum process, they should allow those already accepted for resettlement by Canada to leave. This frames the exit permit as an administrative necessity for international co-operation, rather than a domestic policy shift.
In line with what Christopher mentioned, I'm also suggesting proposing an emergency transit mechanism. For those who aren't familiar with that, it basically means moving people to another country temporarily and then moving them away from places where they're going to receive secondary persecution, like Kenya or South Sudan. Then the Canadian paperwork can be finished in that country, outside of Kenya or outside of South Sudan.
The third recommendation is to push for status recognition related to the commitments that Kenya has made under the Global Compact on Refugees. Kenya's recent Shirika plan, which aims to integrate refugees, is built on the principles of human rights, non-discrimination and protection from persecution. There are intended—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Can you wrap it up, please? We have exceeded the time by a minute and a half.
President, Reaching Out Assisting Refugees
Okay.
There are a number of things that Canada can do to hold Kenya accountable to its commitments under the Global Compact on Refugees.
Liberal
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First of all, I would like to thank all of our witnesses who have appeared today for their immense courage in sharing what has happened to them in living through these situations and coming out stronger on the other side. Thank you very much. I'm very sorry for the horrific experiences and violence you have been subjected to. I hope today we can find some solutions. This is why we're here. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I thank everyone who has appeared at committee today.
There's always a lack of time. Mrs. Nkambwe, I think you wanted to say something, so I will let you go ahead.