Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 23rd, 2026

[Dr. Ronald J. Deibert]

Rwanda is a major perpetrator of transnational repression. Rwanda very rarely gets mentioned because it's often seen as a success story. There's a complicated history with Rwanda. The president is very popular. There's a lot of investment in the region. If you talk to any Rwandan dissident, they will tell you horror stories of not only targeted surveillance, but also targeted kidnappings and assassinations as well.

There are many other countries. Every region in the world has countries that engage in transnational repression.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

I was also going to ask you this question, but it seems to have been answered somewhat.

Does it seem like there's an increase in transnational repression now more than ever? Is this thanks to technology, or is there another reason?

[Dr. Ronald J. Deibert]

Yes, I think it's thanks to technology. We are certainly inundated. We're a small research group, yet we're flooded with inquiries from people who feel that they can't receive help. They are lost. They are coming to an academic research group to try to help them. In a lot of cases, it's not appropriate. We're not set up for that type of assistance. That is why I've been advocating for more support for refugees and immigrants at a grassroots level. They need people within their communities to help them navigate this. It is definitely exploding, though.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

From all of the testimony we've heard in this committee, the way transnational repression is done today is more psychological. If you silence people, then there's no controversy. Would you say it's more like psychological warfare?

[Dr. Ronald J. Deibert]

It's more psychological.

Empirically, there is a major gendered component to transnational repression. We're seeing women, especially from conservative societies, targeted differentially from men. That often involves the use of deepfake videos meant to incriminate somebody, to put them in embarrassing positions that will make them afraid to speak out because something like that could ruin relationships or family relations.

I would like to get back to your question about the explosion that's happening here. I really want to emphasize the situation in the United States. I know that some colleagues here at the table were talking about us acting in unison. I fundamentally disagree. A major risk to transnational repression is on the horizon, and it's coming from south of the border. You only need to open a newspaper and read about ICE agents kidnapping people off the streets and murdering citizens without any repercussions.

I predict that it will eventually spill into our country. We need to reckon with the fact that the country south of the border, which used to be our ally, routinely threatens our sovereignty, and is now rounding up people and deporting them. That's a major risk for transnational repression moving forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you.

Now I would like to invite Mr. Davies to take the floor for five minutes please.

[Fred Davies, Conservative, Niagara South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to follow that with two different subjects.

Let me start with Mr. Tohti.

A constituent of mine is fairly well known internationally. He lives in the Niagara region. Jimmy Lai is a major investor in the Niagara area. He has invested probably billions of dollars in the real estate sector and has created thousands of jobs. He's very well known and respected in Niagara. He was arrested in Hong Kong and has an ever-changing sentence.

Can you draw some parallels with your original discussion on Huseyin? What is your impression of the Jimmy Lai case, and where do you think it's going?

[Mehmet Tohti]

This is an important question.

Huseyin Celil was the first reported victim of transnational repression by a hostile foreign country, despite his Canadian citizenship. Jimmy Lai is the same example. Both Jimmy Lai and Huseyin Celil are the front faces of transnational repression. We can see them. We can visualize them, and we can relate.

As you said, their relatives may be Canadian citizens. I don't know for sure. Maybe Jimmy Lai's family and friends live in Canada and have investments. At the same time, Huseyin Celil and his wife have four children. Some were born in Canada and are Canadian citizens. It is also the destruction of family. This has a profound impact on the freedom of individuals and other members of the community as well. That instills fear and is a threat to the freedom of individuals.

[Fred Davies, Conservative, Niagara South, ON]

The difference in this case is that there have been communications with Jimmy Lai.

The two cases are distinct but similar. Why do you think the Chinese government is acting in this way and do you have any predictions on how this might end up?

[Mehmet Tohti]

The basic intent of the Chinese government is to silence the critics of the Chinese government in third countries, in free countries like Canada.

The Chinese government has been using these sorts of silencing tactics not only for Uyghurs, Tibetans and Hong Kongers, but for some Chinese citizens as well. It is interference in the freedom of free people in free countries: forcing them to work, to be an informant or to be silent on any activities or initiatives that go against the Chinese government.

It is important to raise this case all the time.

[Fred Davies, Conservative, Niagara South, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate your comments.

Professor Deibert, you made reference to the spyware agreements that have been signed by multiple countries. It seems to me that just as we sign agreements, somebody goes out and builds a better mousetrap. This technology is changing substantially.

Mr. Kahn, thank you for making the trip here. What do you see on the horizon? What is the landscape you see in the United States as we look at transnational issues? Where are we headed?

[Tzvi Kahn]

It's a complicated question.

With respect to Iran, I believe it's going to remain a continued threat, and we have to keep our eyes on it. The Islamic Republic has long plotted to act within the United States, as well as Canada, of course. This is going to continue so long as the regime remains in power.

Ultimately, from a U.S. perspective and from the perspective of the west, it's in our interest that this regime fall. I think that should be the ultimate goal of western policy, of the United States and our allies.

I think that as long as that is the case, we are going to continue to see transnational repression as a major problem in the United States.

[Fred Davies, Conservative, Niagara South, ON]

Thank you for that.

For Professor Deibert, I have the same sort of question on the technology side of things. As we looked at AI a couple of years ago, it was outside our realm of understanding. Now, it's part of everything we do.

As those mousetraps get better, where do you think the future lies and what can we do to help mitigate the future damage? It seems that every time we turn around, the threat gets bigger and the knowledge of how to fix that gets smaller.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

You have a few seconds. We've already passed one minute.

[Dr. Ronald J. Deibert]

I would say that it can feel daunting. The range of topics we're describing covers a huge spectrum.

I think the only way to grapple with it is one by one: by picking apart and focusing in on one particular issue that we can better regulate, as opposed to thinking about how we change the entire universe of problems related to digital technology.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Fayçal El-Khoury]

Thank you.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Tohti, you talked a lot about Mr. Celil, someone the government has neglected. I think that should concern all my colleagues around the table.

Can you tell us if, in the past 20 years, the Canadian government has made any attempt to secure Mr. Celil's release?

[Mehmet Tohti]

From time to time, there was a question in Parliament and at various committees posed to government officials about Huseyin Celil. So far, we haven't heard anything. The only answer is that the Chinese government did not recognize citizenship and refused to provide consular services. Except for communications held from time to time between the two governments, I don't know what concrete steps the Government of Canada has taken so far.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

We have heard nothing about behind-the-scenes discussions between the Canadian government and the Chinese Communist Party regime. I, for one, haven't heard anything. Anyway, thank you for your answer.

Earlier, with Mr. Deibert, we talked about the recent diplomatic and trade thaw with Beijing.

Are you concerned about the agreement reached regarding the 49,000 Chinese vehicles that will be allowed into Canada at a significantly lower tariff rate? Originally, the tariff rate was 100%, but it has been reduced to 6.1%, if I recall correctly.

Do you not see this as a risk for national and public security, in that these vehicles can be used to send information to certain servers on Chinese territory? Isn't there also a concern with regard to forced labour, since, according to some studies, forced labour and child labour are used in certain supply chains and in the manufacturing of certain components of those vehicles?

[Mehmet Tohti]

I would just like to say one thing before answering your question.

I believe that the Prime Minister of Canada should call the family and friends of Jimmy Lai, and the wife and four children of Huseyin Celil. The latter family had a photograph taken and shared on social media. At least that photograph travels at light speed and will go somewhere in China and people will share it. Maybe there will even be a rare opportunity for Huseyin Celil to see his children in it.

In many countries, when a Canadian citizen is taken by a hostile state, high-level Canadian officials immediately visit the victim's families or call them to the office, and the government officials stand with them.

In the case of Huseyin Celil, so far for 20 years, no prime minister or minister has called them or just asked them a direct question, “What is your situation?” This is something that the Government of Canada should do for the family members of both Huseyin Celil and Jimmy Lai.

As to your questions about electric vehicles, this is a huge concern for all Canadians, because electric vehicles have computers. They can directly communicate with the Chinese information hub and send and transmit personal information. For that reason, they are a national security issue.

Secondly, they are a forced labour issue. The aluminum production, extraction and all other relevant car parts are done with the use of Uyghur forced labour, which has been well documented and reported in Professor Laura Murphy's comprehensive report. For that reason, the Government of Canada should study this. Instead of importing these electric vehicles, we should ban them until we clarify the components.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Could you send that report to the committee, through the analysts?

Mr. Deibert, you mentioned the treaty Canada signed regarding spyware, which 26 countries worked on. On one end of the spectrum, there are countries that are helping one another to perpetuate a certain form of transnational repression. On the other end of the spectrum, there are countries that will work together to develop new technologies or, at the very least, share those technologies.

You talked about Rwanda earlier. I'd like to ask you a question that's a little out of left field, as we say back home. You may not have the answer, but I'm still going to ask. Are you able to tell the committee whether the Rwandan intelligence services were trained by another country or by the intelligence services of another country? Do you know the answer, or am I asking about something that falls outside of your expertise?

[Dr. Ronald J. Deibert]

Could you clarify the question: the secret services were notified by whom, about what?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Can you tell the committee who trained the Rwandan secret services?

[Dr. Ronald J. Deibert]

You're informed by?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

No, I said “trained”.