Evidence of meeting #30 for International Trade in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was negotiations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Rowlinson  Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers
Nick Milanovic  Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers
Terry Collins-Williams  Director General, Multilateral Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
Paul Robertson  Director General, North America Trade Policy, Department of International Trade
David Plunkett  Director General, Bilateral and Regional Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
Peter Berg  Committee Researcher
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Normand Radford

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good morning, everyone. Let's get started.

We have two meetings today. For the first hour, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we have a study on the Canada-Central America Four free trade agreement negotiations with El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua. In the second half, we have departmental officials on a study of Canada's trade policy.

In the first half, Mr. Julian, I would just like to say that if you intend to bring forward either or both of your motions today, we don't want to start with the motions at the start of the meeting. So we'll deal with them towards the end of the meeting; I'd like to set some time aside for them. Of course, it's up to you whether you bring them forth or not at the meeting. I'm just cautioning that the next meeting does start at 10, and we will have the departmental officials then

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Keep that in mind. I don't know what your intentions are, but those are up to you.

We have today as witnesses, from the Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers, Mark Rowlinson, labour lawyer; and Nick Milanovic, labour lawyer. Gentlemen, do you have an opening statement to make?

9:05 a.m.

Mark Rowlinson Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers

We do. We'll be making an opening statement of eight to ten minutes.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

That's right in line with what we would like. So please go right ahead, and then we'll go to questioning after your opening statements.

9:05 a.m.

Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers

Mark Rowlinson

I'd like to thank the committee, and the chair of the committee in particular, very much for having us here today on behalf of the 350 or so members of the Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers.

As the chair already indicated, with me today is Nick Milanovic. I'll be giving the first half of our brief presentation, and Nick will be doing the second half.

I'd also like to highlight for the committee that in the audience today is Nadja Drost from the Canadian Council for International Co-operation. The CCIC tabled a brief and made a presentation to the committee during the last hearings discussing the CA4 trade agreement.

The Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers submitted a 28-page brief to the committee in June, which I trust has been translated. I think you all have copies. You'll be happy to know that we won't be going through the entire brief this morning.

I'll first briefly outline some of the concerns we have about the existing labour protections in hemispheric trade agreements that Canada has negotiated. Then my colleague Mr. Milanovic is going to review with you some of the concrete and hopefully productive recommendations we have made to potentially negotiate a trade agreement that takes labour rights seriously.

It is obviously the case that increased liberalization of trade in the Americas has significant and important implications for the rights of workers, not just in Canada but throughout the Americas, and in this particular case Central America. In Canada there is a general concern about the downward harmonization of labour rights that Canadian workers could experience, and arguably are experiencing at the moment, as the result of increased liberalization of trade with, for example, Mexico, Chile, and Costa Rica.

It has been our experience that there continue to be real problems with the actual enforcement of labour rights in many Central and South American countries--not all, but many. That's not to say there aren't often good labour laws on the books in Central America or South America--and we're talking here about Central America--but the problem frequently is enforcement. So if you're going to look at actually preventing a downward harmonization of labour rights in the Americas, which can be occasioned by an increased liberalization of trade, you need to look at the substance and enforcement of labour legislation.

Of course, because labour rights and trade rights are connected, in 1993 when NAFTA was first signed it included as part of the package the North American Agreement on Labour Cooperation, known colloquially as the NAFTA labour side agreement. We've now had that agreement for 13 years, and I think we know to some extent what its results have been.

It's important to remember that back in 1993, when the NAFTA labour side agreement was first signed, it was widely seen as a potentially bold new experiment in enforcing labour rights on a transnational basis. It would go some distance toward alleviating the concerns of workers and labour rights organizations that free trade would mean downward pressure on wages and on terms and conditions of employment. Skeptics in 1993 viewed the agreement as being merely window dressing, that it was there to placate the opponents of free trade and provide them with some comfort that free trade would not lead to the dire predictions many foresaw at that time.

Now, 13 years later, both Nick and I have litigated, pursued, and filed cases under the North America Agreement on Labour Cooperation in Canada, the United States, and Mexico. It's been our experience under this agreement that the skeptics have been proven to be correct. The current agreement has substantial flaws that make it not a viable model to pursue in the trade agreement you are now discussing.

The reasons for that are lengthy and set out in the brief. But in a nutshell, the problem with the labour side agreement model is that the enforcement mechanism doesn't work. The process is too slow and cumbersome, and there are no useful remedies that can be achieved against countries or employers who refuse to enforce substantive labour rights in their countries. That's partly because countries throughout the Americas thus far have refused to attorn to any kind of transnational jurisdiction when it comes to enforcing labour rights. They simply refuse to give up sovereignty over these issues.

The model in the NAFTA labour side agreement has been followed, more or less, in all of the other hemispheric trade agreements that have been signed: the Canada-Chile Free Trade Agreement; the Canada-Costa Rica Free Trade Agreement; the U.S.-Central America free trade agreement, known as CAFTA; and the U.S.-Chile agreement. The variations within those agreements are set out in our brief, but they all more or less have the same flaws.

On the message we want to send to you here today, we understand there will likely to be some sort of labour side agreement or labour rights provision in the CA4 trade agreement. If you're going to include labour rights in a trade agreement, do it seriously. Take the job seriously and correct the mistakes that have been made in previous agreements.

In our brief we attempted to provide you with eight recommendations, which we ask you to consider, on how to meaningfully enforce labour rights in these agreements.

I want to turn now to my colleague Mr. Milanovic, who's going to review very briefly some of those recommendations.

9:10 a.m.

Nick Milanovic Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers

I should preface what I'm going to say, in light of what my colleague has said, by emphasizing that this set of suggestions should be viewed with the understanding that we do not actually have a draft text of the agreement. For this reason, we cannot review it and provide you with our opinion on what is good or bad about it. I'll be coming back to this later.

I begin with the recommendation that if you're going to make these rights concrete, and if you're going to take these rights seriously, then you have to at least insert within the agreement the fundamental labour rights recently proclaimed by the ILO.

Allow me to list these rights. First, there is the freedom of association, which would allow workers to organize trade unions, together with the right to engage in collective bargaining, which would allow workers to better their situation. Second, workers should have the right to be free of forced or compulsory labour. Third, children must have the right to be exempted from labour. Fourth, workers must be able to perform their jobs in an atmosphere free of discrimination.

With a core set of labour rights inserted into this trade agreement, we could begin to see that substantive labour rights are actually being treated seriously. Our trade regime would be tempered by a basic approach that allows workers in these countries to organize, express their interests freely, and bargain collectively with their employers.

The enforcement of substantive labour rights is important. As my colleague noted, the NAALC kind of approach has emphasized that each country should enforce its own labour law regime. The problem is that these things aren't necessarily being enforced in each country. Not providing for enforcement of substantive labour rights in each country, or a universal norm, creates a perverse incentive to sign on to NAALC-like agreements and ignore labour laws. This allows some to gain a competitive advantage in the marketplace. If you're going to take labour rights seriously, you need to have an enforceable regime of labour rights that applies to all of the countries involved in the agreement.

There's an issue of whether you should have a side agreement in and of itself. Our experience is that it is ineffective to treat labour rights, or rights of any kind, separately from the rest of the treaty. In our view, you need to incorporate fundamental labour rights into the text of the trade agreement. We've seen that the United States has begun, in a very embryonic way, to do this in its relations in CAFTA and the U.S.-Chile agreements. We would urge you to do the same thing, and we would hope that we could equal or exceed that approach.

Our next suggestion is that labour rights need to be treated the same as any other rights in a trade agreement. Rights for labour and commercial rights for profit organizations ought to receive equal recognition.

Under NAFTA, corporate persons, or legal persons, have substantive and enforceable rights that could also be characterized as human rights. This allows legal persons, corporate persons, to enjoy, through the particular guarantees provided in NAFTA, rights of good faith, due process, and free expression. Traditionally, we associate these rights with human persons rather than legal ones.

If you're going to be approaching the issue from a substantive point of view, you have to be able to treat those rights in the same way as you would treat commercial rights. And while this is a new notion, it's not unheard of. In our brief, we point out that labour issues have been, in a very restricted way, incorporated in free trade agreements worldwide and in the NAFTA.

Currently the NAFTA has a prohibition against replacement workers coming in from another country when there is a domestic labour dispute. The GATT agreement regulates the treatment of products produced by prison labour. So there is some precedent for actually incorporating these rights into these agreements, and we would suggest that this be expanded upon and pursued more vigorously by the Government of Canada in its negotiations of the CA4.

The commercial rights I just referred to have involved the independent right of the organization itself to sue a government that transgresses these rights. In international trade law, that has been a right provided to very few organizations, and so far it has been extended to corporations rather than trade unions. What we say is that if governments aren't going to be necessarily enforcing these rights in some of the countries involved in these agreements, you have to give the private or not-for-profit organization of the trade union the right to enforce whatever labour rights you actually insert into this agreement.

To date there have been a number of suits under chapter 11 that allow corporations to enforce the property rights they have attained in NAFTA. If you're going to insert labour rights into a trade agreement like the one we're discussing, you ought to allow trade unions to pursue these rights at all times, especially when their governments are not pursuing these rights.

The interesting thing about NAFTA is that it provides those commercial entities with property rights and a true enforcement mechanism. That enforcement mechanism is an independent arbitration process. Domestically in Canada, labour lawyers are very familiar with that process. In the federal jurisdiction and the various provincial jurisdictions, we all enforce our rights though an independent arbitration means. However, the NAALC has not provided an independent means to truly enforce those rights. If you're going to have substantive labour rights, though, you have to have an efficient and independent arbitration body with the real power to remedy whatever violations are alleged.

The other thing that would be useful in promoting labour rights is to have effective state-to-state enforcement mechanisms that allow for public participation of the workers affected, along with their representative organizations. What that allows is for the governments to continue to have a dialogue about promoting and increasing the labour rights protections that they have, and to have a dialogue about any problems that they have between the states engaged in trade agreement. It also incorporates the ability of the private organizations or the non-governmental organizations to be a part of that process and to involve themselves in a consultative process to improve these.

Finally, I'd like to add that the difficulty for labour organizations in Central America, Latin America, and elsewhere in the developing world has been that their states themselves have had difficulty enforcing rights because they don't have the capacity, in their institutions, to enforce these rights. We believe Canada should help to promote an institutional capacity to develop the necessary infrastructure to enforce these labour rights. We would hope Canada pursues that.

I want to close on a last note, and I hope I'm not over my time. If I am, I'm sure the chair will let me know shortly.

There is a real need here for transparency. To date, we are addressing this committee without any direct knowledge of the text that's being negotiated. As representatives of worker organizations, professional organizations, and employees themselves, we have a real interest in understanding what the Government of Canada has or is intending for the future. We need to incorporate civil society in a discussion of how we go forward in our trading relationships with Central American countries and with others.

We would therefore call on you to immediately release the draft text of what has been an ongoing negotiation for the past five years. In that way we can inform ourselves on what's going on, and be useful to parliamentary committees like this one by providing our opinions and our technical expertise, entering the democratic discussion of where we go in the future.

We would also urge the Government of Canada to engage in meaningful consultations with civil society groups, trade unions, and the public at large. Although with NAFTA we had a great public debate and discussion, the free trade agreements that have come after this have been dealt with in a much more circumspect manner with respect to public consultation. We believe this issue is important enough that we need to talk about this in a public way, and the Government of Canada has to pursue a much more vigorous consultative process.

We submit that at the end of the process, if the government is going to engage in a treaty with other Central American countries, we need to have a binding vote in Parliament, after having that democratic discussion between us and in the House of Commons, so that Canadians are fully informed about the agreement itself and the various views involved. The House votes on whether or not we actually engage, and binds the executive to a decision.

Those are our submissions for today, subject to your questions. We're very interested in any questions you may have.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, gentlemen, for your presentations.

We're now going to a seven-minute round of questions, starting with the official opposition.

Mr. Temelkovski.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to both witnesses.

Maybe we'll just start at a higher level initially. Do uniform provincial labour laws exist in Canada?

9:25 a.m.

Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers

Mark Rowlinson

Labour legislation in Canada is primarily a matter of provincial jurisdiction, as I imagine the member is aware. But in the federally regulated sector, of course there's uniform federal legislation.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

So you would say there are some uneven labour law practices among provinces?

9:25 a.m.

Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers

Nick Milanovic

I would agree that there is not a uniform code across Canada because of the jurisdictional divisions between sections 91 and 92 of our Constitution. However, labour law experts have noted that there is a core set of rights across this country with respect to how unions become certified, successor rights, and other matters.

So although the provincial jurisdictions and the federal government have had a different jurisdiction in creating their own models, they have modelled each other across the country with respect to how unions become organized, how labour disputes are conducted, and how other rights are treated.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

So you would say there is room for improvement within Canada, between provinces, to make it more uniform.

9:25 a.m.

Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers

Nick Milanovic

There's always room for improvement.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Okay.

Now, if we take it over to the CA4 agreement, the rationale behind your suggestion that maybe we should re-look at the labour law enforcement part of the agreement is that we assume, or we think, or we know, that there are some infractions of labour law codes in those countries. Would you agree with that?

9:25 a.m.

Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers

Mark Rowlinson

I think that's essentially correct. I mean, there are infractions of labour law in virtually any jurisdiction that you might care to look at closely. That's why you have enforcement mechanisms.

The broader point we would make is that if one is going to accept the proposition--and I think we're getting to the point where we have to accept the proposition--that capital and corporations are going to act transnationally, then we need to look at meaningful ways that labour rights can be enforced transnationally as well. That's essentially it.

Thus far an enormous amount of attention has been paid to giving transnational capital and corporations rights across borders, but very little attention has been paid to actually making sure that workers, who of course aren't as mobile as capital, can work on at least some even playing field, and that, as Nick said, there isn't this perverse race to the bottom, where countries seek a competitive advantage by not protecting the most basic labour rights for their workers.

That's how I'd put that.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

So we're looking at ensuring some of the basic labour laws, and we want to spread some of those laws across any agreement that we sign with any other country.

9:30 a.m.

Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers

Mark Rowlinson

I think that's fair.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Is there a model of any other agreement we have signed so far that is adequate? There's always room for improvement, of course.

9:30 a.m.

Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers

Nick Milanovic

Well, that's always the position of the Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers. Is there an adequate model? In short, no.

I pointed to the NAFTA itself as containing a very embryonic kind of labour right, which is an anti-replacement worker provision that would allow a country to prevent the entry of employees who are coming over to work to replace workers who are engaged in a labour dispute, whether that be a strike or a lockout. The prison labour article in GATT has actually been incorporated in NAFTA as well, so there's another provision in NAFTA--article 2101, I think it is--that deals with articles made by prison labour and allows an exception to the general rules. So there's a beginning in these agreements themselves, as opposed to in the side agreements, but frankly, that is being pursued around the globe.

The United States has a generalized preference system that has some acknowledgment of labour rights, but there isn't a substantive code to which we in labour organizations and our representatives would all point and say that's the model we need to follow. We would say to you that Canada can take the lead on this, because we have, in my view, an international reputation for promoting human rights around the world.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

In terms of the replacement workers, I think we in the House have just recently been or even now are still discussing some replacement workers legislation, so we are not there ourselves.

9:30 a.m.

Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers

Nick Milanovic

On that particular issue we are on an international level, though perhaps not on a domestic level. We'll leave it to you good folks at the House of Commons to figure that one out for us.

My friend also has something to say about this.

9:30 a.m.

Labour Lawyer, Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers

Mark Rowlinson

I would just make two points, quickly.

It is the position of the Canadian Association of Labour Lawyers that since--not un-coincidentally, in our view--the free trade agreement was signed in 1988 and then since the NAFTA was signed in 1993, there has been a gradual erosion of what I would call the standards of labour legislation in Canada.

We can look at all the various jurisdictions. We can look at union certification. You can look at replacement worker issues. Not so much at the federal level, which of course is where Parliament has jurisdiction, but in various provinces there has been a gradual erosion in labour legislation, so we do have work to do in this country. By international standards, though, by and large we're generally able to meet those international standards.

I want to make one other quick point. You asked about whether there was a model Canada could look to. I would suggest to you that if there is a model for this sort of transnational enforcement of labour standards, the model is probably Europe. The European Union has really, over many decades now, been developing gradually, but slowly and steadily, transnational institutions that enforce basic minimum labour standards in a very effective way. Not all standards are enforced that way, but many of them are.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Temelkovski, your time is up.

Do you have an important short question? Go ahead.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Lui Temelkovski Liberal Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

It's a very short question. In terms of the transparency, you mentioned that the text has not been available. Were texts available previously, or is this an abnormality that the text is not available to you?