International Trade Committee on Dec. 7th, 2006

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

So would you not consider reapplying or going through that process?

[Wynne Hartviksen]

You know, yes. The decision came down at about 4:30 before Thanksgiving in October, and that was one of the things that were considered. The fact of the matter is, though, that even with a CITT recommendation of an inquiry, it would have to be the trade minister who would initiate the negotiations.

Interestingly enough, in Europe they had been looking to use their version of their international trade tribunal. There were complaints and inquiries going through it, but the European Union moved around that to act on its own to protect the industry.

So the problem was, honestly, that it took 15 months to say no, 15 months for us to put in a bunch of documentation, and we got back a one-page assessment the day before Thanksgiving saying, “with statements to follow later”. And we did get some of the statements later, that “we don't recognize your standing to file a complaint”.

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I think there is obviously a miscommunication here, because I'm told, as I've said, that only two letters from small domestic producers were ever produced.

[Wynne Hartviksen]

I will absolutely look into that with our counsel.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Menzies, you have one minute.

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

One minute?

[Wynne Hartviksen]

I'm sorry.

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Anyway, thank you, ladies, for your presentation.

If we can change gears a little here, can you tell me what your union or unions have done to raise public awareness of this issue? Consumers shop with their pocketbooks. They always look for the cheapest garment. I happen to be married to one of those who does that--and many of us are. They're always looking for the cheapest garments, for good-quality garments, but the cheapest.

What have you done to raise public awareness that this form of protection may actually raise the cost of their garments?

[Wynne Hartviksen]

If we go to negotiate safeguards today, it's not going to roll back things. It would put in protection on the current import levels from China and allow it to go up by 7.5%. Fundamentally, that is the regime, so I'm not sure it would impact anything differently from what it is today, because it's—

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Then why do we need to protect it?

[Wynne Hartviksen]

I'm sorry, let me go back.

If safeguards were negotiated today, it can't really reverse the damage that's already been done. What it can do is restrict the increases to 7.5% for the next two years of imports from China in these specific categories. So it wouldn't fundamentally change it.

We have done a lot of public things on this issue. We held a big rally in Montreal on October 20, where over 2,000 garment workers actually took to the streets of Montreal and fundamentally shut down for that one afternoon the third-largest apparel industry in North America.

To raise public attention, we've done a lot of work with the press. In the past, on this other angle, on the angle of where do people purchase things from and what does it mean to purchase things from different countries around the world, we've been well known for campaigning on anti-sweatshop legislation and measures like that.

We really do think, though, that this is just a very simple WTO-sanctioned method that other countries have used to give their industries--and frankly, their manufacturers, and by way of them, the jobs those manufacturers represent--some breathing room.

And yes, there are lots of people who look to get the best bargain. Frankly, Radika and I were talking on the plane on the way here, and lots of the workers in our industry find themselves in the same boat, perhaps, as your spouse. As Radika was saying, some months they'll work eight hours a day, and that's fine, they're making a full-time living wage, but when there is trouble, they get cut back first to six hours a day, next to four hours a day, and their wages go down, of course, proportionately with that, because they're hourly wage workers. Under that kind of pressure, some of our own members, of course, are shopping in dollar stores and purchasing clothes from some of these countries too.

Yes, we understand it's a complex issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Julian is probably not willing to give up some of his time for Mr. Menzies.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I always like listening to Mr. Menzies. I like rebutting him better, but I won't do that today.

Thank you very much for coming forward.

Ms. Quansoon, it's very rare we hear from working people at this committee; we tend to hear from corporate lawyers and corporate economists. So it's nice to hear a voice from what's really happening out there. I think it's a good wake-up call for Ottawa.

[Radika Quansoon]

I hope so.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Certainly it is, and your testimony is much appreciated.

You talk about the uncertainty that you and your co-workers are living through right now. Are you saying that safeguards would help to provide some certainty in terms of your jobs because the plant would be able to plan more effectively over the next few years?

[Radika Quansoon]

Yes, that's what we're trying to do, because we lose a lot of work. Everything is going offshore, and that's limited our work of eight hours. We have families to look after and half a paycheque doesn't cut it. So that's what we're trying to do.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you.

Conversely, if there's no action, you would expect that uncertainty to get worse.

[Radika Quansoon]

Yes, and we don't even know what will happen next year, because that's how we work. We might go six months or five months working eight hours, and all of a sudden it just drops. Then it might pick up again. That's why I said some of us can't even afford to purchase a car. We take public transportation because we can't afford to pay for insurance or a car payment. Most of the people live in apartments, and they're sometimes run-down apartments. Some have had to sell their houses, if they even had houses. A lot of single women, single parents, work there too. I'm one of them.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you for that.

I had a number of questions for Ms. Hartviksen as well.

First, if no action were taken, do you have any projections on the number of jobs that would be lost in the next few months?

Secondly, I understand that the special measures would only apply until 2008. The question then would be, what would happen afterwards?

As my third question, the government has made some decisions very rapidly, although they're not decisions that have been very well thought out. If they made the right decision in this case and actually moved to implement the safeguards, how long would it take to negotiate and implement those?

Finally, I just want you to go back to the last election campaign, because the parties were all on the record. I believe the Conservative Party was on the record as saying they actually supported safeguard measures. I just want to confirm that, in a sense, seeing the Conservative members of this committee voting for the motion would just see them honouring one of their election pledges.

[Wynne Hartviksen]

I have returned to working for this union after about six or seven years. I have been back working for UNITE HERE for three and a half months. In that time, we've had two plant closures. One has basically just been announced, and we're probably looking at 400 or 500 workers. That's just in the time that I have been here.

In terms of whether or not they'll have a next contract so that they will be able to start literally the month afterwards, some of these manufacturing operations run so close that it's sometimes even hard to predict which ones are going to go down. But if we're looking at an average of 500 workers every three months, start counting backwards.

The fact of the matter is that it's actually more than that. Those are the manufacturers that we represent. Again, the apparel council estimates that about 25% of this industry is unionized. Lots of the other small owner-operator microshops, as they call them, have less than five workers we don't hear about, but they do account for a large number of workers as well.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

So we're talking about five to ten workers a day losing their jobs.

[Wynne Hartviksen]

If you did the math on that, sure. My math skills aren't always that great.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I did the calculation.

[Wynne Hartviksen]

What happens afterwards, in 2008? Again, because this is a negotiated process, it's possible that we could negotiate agreements with China after that. It's a consideration. There are different provisions—I'm not extraordinarily well versed on them—in the U.S. and EU agreements to potentially keep some categories going after the 2008 end of the marker of the WTO-sanctioned safeguard measures.

Yes, in the past—we did our political research—there was a motion encouraging the former government, under Mr. Paul Martin, to investigate the use of a number of measures to assist the apparel industry, including the work safeguards. It was supported by the Bloc Québécois, the NDP, and the Conservative opposition party at that time, as well as, I should say, a number of Liberals who actually broke with the government at that time to support it as well.

In fact, Mr. Menzies over there has been good. Mr. Menzies was the critic in the last government. In fact, we might have occasionally been quoting some of his press releases in some of our press releases to try to raise public awareness on this issue. He was saying that the Canadian government should stand up for Canadian jobs, and we fully agree with him on that matter.

[An hon. member]

Hear, hear!