International Trade Committee on Dec. 7th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you.

We'll go now to the Bloc Québécois, to Monsieur Cardin.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

You’re asking for safeguards in eight specific categories. How many categories are there in the apparel industry?

[Wynne Hartviksen]

I actually don't know the full set of categories.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

I guess they are many of them.

[Wynne Hartviksen]

There are many. There are more than this.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

So, there are some categories for which you’re not asking for safeguards. Is it because you recognize they’re hopeless or are they in good shape and relatively stable?

[Wynne Hartviksen]

I hate to say it's probably the former rather than the latter. There are categories where there is almost no serious level of domestic production anymore.

Women in this room will probably know that it's really hard to find some sportswear. Women's sportswear is increasingly impossible to find Canadian-made. There are certain manufacturers within certain categories that are still doing okay, some of them because they've moved to a combination of manufacturing and importing, and a couple of them just because they're very large producers, but all these categories have been feeling pressure for years now, particularly since 2005. The entire industry has felt pressure, and it's seen across the industry in terms of job loss and plant closings.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Are there in the apparel industry some niche producers who are the only ones making certain products, so they can still export substantially?

[Wynne Hartviksen]

Yes, and interestingly also, though, no.

I was speaking, actually, to some workers we represent. They work in a very small manufacturing plant and they make extremely specialized safety equipment, almost tailor-made to firefighters' search and rescue operations, not even just your average firefighter's uniform. They make extremely specialized uniforms and clothing for the safety industry, so we're talking about items that are made in very small numbers. You would think there would be no benefit, in contracts like that, to importing from China, yet they too are facing challenges and competition from China, even in those niche markets.

There are some who obviously, because of a specific design or a specific brand that they might make themselves and start up a small business, will continue to have a secure niche, but people are feeling pressure across the industry.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

I am sorry to interrupt you but my colleague would also like to ask you a question.

Does the apparel industry intend to develop specific niche markets? If it does, would you need government support to get ready in case safeguards are implemented? You would need some time to adjust and the development of specific niche markets would have advantages in this regard. The government can also help you.

[Wynne Hartviksen]

Yes, that's sounds good, and a question that probably should go to the Canadian Apparel Federation. There has been a lot of work on trying to develop those niche markets. Some of them, you're right, we haven't been able to, because we can't get the breathing space. Safeguards would give the industry some of that breathing space to make that happen.

Again, I understand the Canadian Apparel Federation will come, along with the Apparel Human Resources Council, which is a human resource development group in which labour and industry sit together with government to try to discuss maintaining jobs in the industry. I think that's where we would love to see programs like that developed.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Good morning and thank you for your excellent presentation.

Some countries have domestic policies that favour domestic procurement of apparel and textile products without necessarily going against WTO rules. Could the Canadian government similarly strengthen its domestic policies in order to encourage purchases of Canadian clothing and textiles while still abiding by the WTO rules against protectionism?

In other terms, can we have policies to supply the Canadian Forces and other federal institutions and to favour our own domestic products without being seen as going against WTO rules? I think we can do more to encourage domestic procurement.

[Wynne Hartviksen]

Yes. I should say, though, that safeguards are a WTO-sanctioned part of the China accession policy. It's hard to even really think of something sort of protectionist, which is often seen as a leftist ideology, to be something that George Bush's government negotiated, but they did.

But on your issue of government procurement in particular, which we have taken a new and active interest in, I think you're completely right. The policy does need to be comprehensive. It needs to do things like encourage niche markets. It needs to do things like safeguards, which will give us some of that breathing space. But also, the Canadian government and in fact all levels of government need to consider that we might be sending somebody across the world to stand up for the interests of Canada in the Canadian army, yet they might be wearing goods made in China.

The Toronto Transit Commission actually has a very interesting procurement policy—some folks might have heard of it. It has a policy, negotiated by the transit workers' union, at least in terms of garments, that their uniforms are made in Canada, because that is a priority. They say, we are government-funded and we should therefore be also supporting the taxpayers who pay into that government funding, and we can do that by buying Canadian-made products.

So that has been a priority for some governments, and I understand Manitoba just instituted a fair trade procurement policy as well. So yes, we absolutely should do that.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

So you think we should further consider these opportunities in order to provide you with some breathing space and find out how we can better encourage domestic procurement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Merci, Monsieur André. Time is up.

We're going to have barely enough time for each party to have one round. Ms. Guergis, for seven minutes, please.

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you. I may be sharing my time with Mr. Menzies, depending on how quick I am.

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Depending on how long you talk.

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Good morning. Thank you very much for being here.

I have a couple of questions. I need you to help me out here, because I'm getting some different information. So if you could clarify it all for me, great.

[Wynne Hartviksen]

I'll try. The numbers are complicated.

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

What I'm being told here is that in 2005, when UNITE HERE Canada petitioned the trade tribunal, the tribunal had asked you to establish and demonstrate that you had the support of the Canadian domestic industry before proceeding with an inquiry. The reports say they had asked for further data indicating domestic support, and you were only able to provide two letters from small domestic producers.

I'm hoping you can help clarify that for me if perhaps it was different, because having only two letters from small domestic producers really isn't helping your case. Why are you not able to give us further data indicating this domestic support that would allow us to proceed to the process that you'd like to see us proceed to?

I also want to point out that I am told it is less than 1% of the Canadian apparel industry that has made requests to the government. Have there been further requests that perhaps I'm not being advised of? If you can clarify that for me, I'd appreciate it.

What do you have to say about this, which has been pointed out to me as a fact? It says here that for Canada, it appears that the major result of quota elimination has been that the Chinese apparel imports have replaced imports from other developing countries that previously enjoyed a guaranteed market share under the previous quota regime. So if you'd care to comment on the reality of that for me, I'd appreciate it.

[Wynne Hartviksen]

Yes. That's because we had a policy of attempting to trade with less-developed nations, frankly as a way to assist developing nations. The garment and apparel industry has always been a real foundation for developing economies. There's an easy entry point; it is not highly costly capital investment to get into it. So we'd had a policy to do that.

When the sanctions were lifted, China became more prominent and has in fact moved into the space that used to be occupied by some of those other countries, and then overtaken it even more. Again, you have to vary from category to category.

On the complaint to the Canadian International Trade Tribunal, I'm not sure. I don't have the entire file with me here today. I understand there were more letters than that submitted. Some of it might have to do with the fact that the CITT required very specific manufacturing from each of them, but also that our complaint, though supported, was not brought about by manufacturers. We really did believe when we launched our complaint that workers should have a voice at the Canadian International Trade Tribunal and went forth with it on that. We did come up with some supporting documentation, but we felt that it should be recognized, honestly, that workers in the industry have just as much say, because they are producers-- or at least have a say in things like the Canadian International Trade Tribunal.

I have with me here letters to former Prime Minister Martin from some of these large companies and postcards with which they signed on to our campaign, which I'd be happy to provide you with.

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but why wouldn't they have been produced to the tribunal when the tribunal was asking for them?

[Wynne Hartviksen]

I'm not sure. I would be surprised that the tribunal did not receive that either, so I'd have to check back with our counsel on the matter as well. But I'd be happy to provide them to you.

[Helena Guergis, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Yes, we would need that information, because this is what we're clearly being told, that the data was not provided to proceed.

[Wynne Hartviksen]

I brought a pack, just in case.

There are a number of different types of manufacturers, a variety of employers. In fact, a uniform manufacturer that makes things like the TTC workers' clothes and the Air Canada pilots' clothes is one of them. There are a variety of employers, but all within these industries.