Evidence of meeting #44 for International Trade in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agriculture.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB
Very briefly, you had talked about establishing 15 free trade agreements and nine cooperative trade agreements. In the notes here, I see you've successfully negotiated 50 trade network agreements. Can you define the difference?
Is it a goal that Canada should be potentially seeking? Is it a lesser achievement than an actual free trade agreement? Can you define the differences and the advantages?
12:50 p.m.
Chairman, Member of Parliament, Parliament of Iceland, European Free Trade Association
I think Canada should emphasize free trade agreements.
As we have mentioned, we have tried to be as progressive as possible and to find agreements where we can. Sometimes it takes time, as you all know. It's sometimes better to take fewer steps than none at all.
But free trade agreements are definitely something that I think every nation should try to emphasize. One free trade agreement is not the same as another free trade agreement. For example, even though I cannot come up with the details, as you know, I think I can imagine that if we conclude the Canada-EFTA free trade agreement, it will not be as deep as many other free trade agreements that we have. Some have been going on for a long time, so you go to a second step and maybe a third step.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you very much.
Now for the last questioner, Mr. Julian, for roughly five minutes.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We spoke earlier about the social, environmental, and labour agreements that you've been putting in as part of the EFTA. I would like to stress that we're very appreciative of the example your four countries have set. You have some of the highest standards on the human development index that is put forward by the United Nations of any countries in the world. So you've managed to achieve that balance between economic strategy, trade strategy, and social policy to ensure that the population benefits.
In Canada we can learn from that, because since the first free trade agreement in 1989, we've actually found most Canadian families earning less in real terms now than they were then. So for most of the Canadian population under the free trade regime, without having the other safeguards in place and without having balanced social policy in place, most Canadian families are worse off.
I have three quick questions. The first is for anyone who wants to answer. How do you balance the trade and economic policy with social policy to ensure that the entire population benefits?
Secondly, taking a strong stand on defending your agricultural sector and your rural areas.... In Canada we are under some attack from the United States, wanting to take apart our Canadian Wheat Board and end our supply management practices, and this government unfortunately seems to be conceding in those areas. How do you defend agriculture in a very real way for the benefit of your rural communities?
Finally, to the Norwegian delegates, I would like to mention that in 1996 Alberta's heritage fund and the Norwegian heritage fund from oil revenues were about the same, and six years later Norway's has gone up to over $100 billion and Alberta's has actually shrunk. How are you ensuring that the benefits from oil exploration and the petroleum industry actually go back to Norwegian citizens?
12:50 p.m.
Chairman, Member of Parliament, Parliament of Iceland, European Free Trade Association
I will skip the oil. We don't have that trouble at home. We have a lot of hot water, but no oil.
When it comes to trade and social affairs, this is something I think you will never...even though we are quite pleased with the performance we have had, Iceland is no heaven. And even though it has only a 1.2% unemployment rate, for example, and the GDP per person has gone up, there are always things that, while I wouldn't call them a struggle, are things you have to be aware of, like helping the poorest and giving them a chance in life.
But it's difficult to measure these things also. We have a discussion now about what I would call the Gini meter. I don't know if you know what that is. But at the moment, for example, what has happened in Iceland--and this has happened before--is that even though everyone has benefited from our economic policy, the richest 5% have got a lot richer--which is not bad for the rest of the people, but that's just what has happened. The poor have also got a lot more. Everyone has got more. But this is something about which you will always have discussion, and about which people do not always agree.
In my view, it's important that everyone has a chance and we can help the ones who have the least, especially children. That's just something I think we always have to bear in mind, and we can never stop working on that.
Then you come to your second one, which is the agriculture sector. At the moment I don't know, I haven't seen any opinion polls, but I would think that 70% of the Icelandic population would be against subsidizing agriculture. And there is a lot of pressure from the consumers--and this has changed a lot in the last decade--to get cheaper imports of agricultural products in our country.
This is something that has been discussed. What has happened is that it's getting less and less important, the agriculture sector, because it's not very competitive, for obvious reasons. And I think we will see changes in the near future towards more free trade on agriculture, certainly at least in Iceland.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you.
Mr. Gunnarsson, you wanted to answer the question as well, and then Mr. Hansen. Go ahead.
12:55 p.m.
Member of Parliament, Althingi, Icelandic Parliament, European Free Trade Association
Mr. Julian was correct when he mentioned that the EFTA states have one of the highest standards of living in the world and that they also have very strong social policies. I am a social democrat, and in my opinion, these two things go hand in hand. How can you secure a standard of living better than by ensuring that people are getting their consumer goods at the market price? A large market and less strain on businesses mean you get a better price all over, which of course means that people are better off than they would be if they had to buy more or less all their consumer goods in a strained market where a monopoly would make prices...or they would not be able to buy at the competitive prices in the world.
Being a social democrat, I say that free trade and access for people to goods at reasonable prices is one of the cornerstones of being a strong social state.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you.
We have Mr. Hansen and then Mr. Fehr. Mr. Hansen, go ahead.
12:55 p.m.
Member of Parliament, Parliament of Norway, European Free Trade Association
Thank you.
On the first question, I'll make it very short and say it's two things: one, fair distribution; two, a strong public sector.
To the second question, about agriculture, I will say there are two things we do in Norway. We have very high customs rates for imports; we try to have very few imports. Then we have very extensive subsidizing of our own farmers. That's how we protect farming and agriculture.
In Norway, agriculture is not a big part of the economy, but it's an important part of our way of life. We are a big country by European standards, with few people, but we live everywhere over this area. Farming is an important part of that.
On your last question, about the oil fund, as we call it, we decided some years ago--and it was almost unanimous in Parliament, except for one party, which is one of the biggest parties for the time being--that we should put all our income from oil into a fund and that we should use only about 4% of it each year, so that we could have that fund for the generations to come, and so on. In the last four or five years we have used a little more than 4%. This year we are down 4%. Thanks to the rising oil prices over the last two years, I think that in the next years we won't use that much; we should save even more, because the economy is booming and the unemployment rate is very low.
It appears that we have succeeded in saving most of this money for the generations to come and have not let it destroy our industry, because that's the main danger: we use so much of it that our exporting industries are out of competition.
1 p.m.
Member of Parliament, Parliament of Switzerland, European Free Trade Association
I have three remarks.
First of all, you asked how we can finance or manage social policy. I think you can manage social policy if you have a successful economy. As a social democrat, I would say our free trade policy, our open markets, our openness to the world make up one of the bases for our successful economy. Without all these agreements we wouldn't have a successful economy and we wouldn't have the possibility to formulate such a social policy.
Second, I would contradict you a little bit. I think Canada is quite successful. If, for instance, you look at your budget, you don't have a budget deficit; in all our countries, we have huge budget deficits.
1 p.m.
Voices
No, no.
1 p.m.
Member of Parliament, Parliament of Switzerland, European Free Trade Association
No, no, okay; but in Switzerland we have a huge budget deficit. In Canada you don't have one, so you have to have quite a successful economy. I think both of our economies could be even more successful if we had a good and fair and long-standing relationship, especially on the economy.
In my personal view, such a deepened economic relationship would help all of our countries. As a social democrat, I am deeply convinced of that.
1 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you.
We are out of time for the meeting. I would like to say that on behalf of the committee, we all appreciate your coming today. It's been very informative for us.
Before we close the meeting, we have a bit of business to do. If you would remain behind in the room, it will take about a minute.
Because of the time constraints, I seek the committee's permission to review the order in council appointment of Eric Siegel as the president and CEO of Export Development Canada. We have a limited amount of time to do that, so could we please do so for about three-quarters of an hour on February 13?
For the rest of the meeting, we will have Stephen Poloz, the senior vice-president, corporate affairs, and chief economist of Export Development Canada. Could we also agree to review that order in council appointment?
1 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
1 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you all very much for coming. It is much appreciated.
Yes, Mr. Thordarson.
1 p.m.
Chairman, Member of Parliament, Parliament of Iceland, European Free Trade Association
On behalf of the delegation, I thank you very much for a very good meeting.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to give you a little token of gratitude.
Free traders was a saying of the Vikings. They did a bit more than free trade--
1 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
1 p.m.
Chairman, Member of Parliament, Parliament of Iceland, European Free Trade Association
--but they were free traders, and this is called Hávamál. If you need some wisdom, then you can look in this book.
1 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you so much.
Some of us can stay around for a while after the meeting, but the meeting is adjourned.