Evidence of meeting #47 for International Trade in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was china.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gilles Rhéaume  Vice-President, Policy, Business and Society, Conference Board of Canada
Glen Hodgson  Vice-President and Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Order. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to our meeting today.

Before I start with the actual meeting, I want to point out the notices of motion. Just so you all know, the notices have been given and the motions could be brought up at any opportunity.

That's strictly an information thing—fewer surprises—and that's all it is.

Of course, we're dealing with looking at Canada and its trade with other countries, and at some of the difficulties and opportunities for Canadian businesses in improving trade with other countries. In particular, we're looking at how the Canadian government can help businesses be more effective, and remove, I guess, or try to identify and then remove, the obstacles that businesses have in their trade with countries around the world.

Our witnesses today are from the Conference Board of Canada--once again, for the second time—and we welcome Glen Hodgson, senior vice-president and chief economist for the Conference Board—

Yes, Monsieur Cardin.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Mr. Chairman, given the committee is master of its own destiny, I would like to know if in the near future, we could possibly receive an update on our work plan.

I noticed that the witnesses have been appearing as scheduled, but I believe that it would be a good idea to organize a meeting as soon as possible in order to review our work plan, readjust our ultimate goal, if necessary, and double check the deadline that we have given ourselves.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Actually, over the next couple of weeks I think the steering committee should meet. We have the schedule set until the end of March. Of course, that was agreed to, but what we were going to do after that was going to be based to some extent on what we found over February and March, really the initial part of this study.

So we will have a steering committee to have a look at that. I wanted to go along as far as we could in these initial two months so that we had the chance to determine where we wanted to go, based on more meetings.

But certainly I will arrange a meeting of the subcommittee on agenda, probably for the week after next. We can have a look at that then.

Mr. Julian.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Chair, I would support what Mr. Cardin just said. I wouldn't suggest having it in two weeks; I would suggest having it next week.

We did raise this with you last week. If you could schedule it next week, I think that would be appropriate, and that would give us the opportunity to really put into place what the work of the committee will be through the two weeks in March and also through April.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

I've chatted with people from all parties—you brought this up last week—and it seems the week after next is the week that probably would work best. I'll arrange that for as early in the week as I can.

It won't work for next week, just so you know. But that'll give us time—

Yes, Mr. Menzies.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB

Mr. Chair, I have a quick comment.

I would like to get on the record again my concern about a steering committee. As I've stated before, I'd rather see this done as a full committee, looking at what the plans are, taking some time out of a meeting to discuss where we should be going. That way we get input from all the members.

I just think that would be a more effective way and a more inclusive way to establish future direction for the committee.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Yes, and you have stated that before, Mr. Menzies.

The committee has decided that we'll have a subcommittee on the agenda. If the committee wants to revisit that, I'm certainly willing to do that. I would recommend we don't do it today, as we have a lot of important information today, but we certainly can look at this at any time.

The subcommittee on the agenda normally focuses things, or that's the idea anyway. Then of course we always have to have it approved by the full committee. We do go through that discussion anyway.

So we can discuss that, but if we could leave it for another meeting, I think it would be appropriate.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB

It's your decision, Mr. Chair.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Menzies.

For the meeting today, we have, as I said, Glen Hodgson.

I don't believe I mentioned you earlier. It's Mr. Gilles Rhéaume, correct?

11:15 a.m.

Gilles Rhéaume Vice-President, Policy, Business and Society, Conference Board of Canada

Yes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

I thought there might have been an interpretation problem, and that's why I interrupted partway through.

Of course, Gilles Rhéaume is vice-president of policy, business, and society.

Gentlemen, you've been here before and you know the format. You have a presentation, I understand, of roughly 20 minutes, PowerPoint included. I am very much looking forward to your presentation and then the questioning.

Thank you for being here again, gentlemen.

11:15 a.m.

Glen Hodgson Vice-President and Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada

Thank you for having us.

Mr. Chairman, this is a great privilege. I think this is the third time I've been back to this committee in the last three months or so.

What we're going to do today is walk through the fairly standard presentation we've been doing on our report. I'll warn you right now, what's on the screen is not identical to what you have in hard copy in English only.

The slides are being translated into French, but you can consult the presentation, because it contains all of the slides that appeared in the report. This presentation is broader.

This is actually the presentation I gave to the Public Policy Forum about three weeks ago now, responding to Advantage Canada, which the government, of course, put out in November. There are a lot of crosswalks between Advantage Canada and our report, but they're not identical. There's an alignment on thinking, but they're not identical.

So very quickly, we've published our report now. It's in four volumes. This is what volume one looks like. It's called Mission Possible: Stellar Canadian Performance in the Global Economy. It's available on our website. We'd be very happy to give you hard copies of all four volumes.

Gilles, you have the executive summary as well, if people would like to see that.

11:15 a.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Business and Society, Conference Board of Canada

Gilles Rhéaume

Yes, I've passed it on.

11:15 a.m.

Vice-President and Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada

Glen Hodgson

The core hypothesis—and we have the evidence to show this—is that Canada has been slipping in terms of wealth creation within our economy for at least 15 years now.

We believe we're slipping for two reasons: one is the structural change on how the world economy is organized—what I call the shifting tectonic plates of the global economy—and two is the fact that the model for international business has changed. I came up with a phrase to describe this about five years ago. I call it integrative trade, which is really businesses repositioning parts of their supply chain around the world because of lower barriers to trade over the last 20 to 25 years.

Here's some of the evidence. This shows you Canada's productivity growth rate compared to the other countries in the OECD, the major industrial countries, since 1999. You can see where we are: we're the red bar pretty close to two-thirds of the way across the chart. The United States has stronger productivity growth. You can see that countries like Slovakia, Korea, and Ireland have double or even triple our annual growth rate for productivity. That, accumulated over time, of course, turns into things like real wages not going up very rapidly.

Mr. Julian last time talked about income disparity and the fact that family incomes don't go up. That flows directly back to very weak productivity performance relative to most other countries. It becomes even more striking when you compare Canada to the United States. This gives you a 25-year comparison of Canada-U.S. productivity performance. There's where we are and there's where the Americans are. That translates to a gap of probably about $8,000 to $9,000 per capita across the country. That's equivalent to Ontario's spending on education per student.

So it shows you that basically if we could close the productivity gap somehow, you could have a health care system and an education system functioning at a very high level. It really translates into the wealth of the society. The 2006 data, which are very preliminary, show that Canada has again fallen well below the United States. It's very striking—the only period on that whole chart for 25 years when Canada actually matched the United States was in 2005, and that was as America was going through a serious adjustment in the value of their currency.

I personally believe that the idea of closing the gap with the United States is folly. I think we should be trying to stop the gap from growing any further. If we set that as a first step, that would be a significant step ahead. We are now at 83% of U.S. levels of productivity. We have years of analysis showing that. In fact, there's very strong consensus. Almost all economists in the country agree on the data and on the prognosis.

On the integrative trade side, this just gives you some evidence for why I believe so strongly and why in fact the Conference Board believes so strongly that foreign investment is such a key driver of international business today. The two bars show you annual growth rates in FDI—foreign direct investment—exports, and GDP. It's fairly simple to see what the driver is today, what the fastest growing component is: it's international investment at pretty close to double exports and more than double GDP.

So rather than thinking about trade and investment, arguably, we should be talking about investment and trade, creating an investment climate in Canada that attracts our fair share of global investment and at the same time does things to encourage Canadian businesses to use outward investment to position themselves around the world.

This is just another piece of evidence of integrative trade. This shows you—and it's a very busy slide, but I'll walk you through it very quickly—the domestic content of our exports by various sectors.

On the far left we have mineral fuels—oil and gas—and you can see that domestic content, of course, is very high. We import a little bit of technology machinery to support the oil and gas sector, but it's very high.

On the far right you have the auto industry; it's below 50%. In fact, Canadian content in many of the vehicles manufactured in Canada is only about 32% or 33%. The majority of the vehicle actually consists of parts and services that come from abroad. That's evidence of very deep integration within North America and the global economy.

It's almost like a saddle. You have high Canadian content for resources and for services, and then for manufacturing you have much lower levels of Canadian content—much higher levels of integration—largely within North America.

Again, this is part of the evidence as to why I thought the concept of integrative trade was so important. Of course, I spent 10 years of my career at Export Development Canada. It's now quite fundamental to their business model to try to figure out how to support Canadian business internationally, mindful of the fact that we're deeply integrated on investment and on imports as a key element of exports.

In volume one of our report, we then point to some immediate challenges, and as you'll note, we've put sustainability at the top of the list.

Our project went on for three and a half years. This didn't emerge yesterday; it is something the board has thought about for a long time. In fact, Gilles has led that business over the last 15 years. We really think we have to find a way to get the balance right between economic growth and environmental protection. Recommendations in the report address that issue directly.

Second, the huge global economic imbalances that exist are an immediate risk. The last time I checked the numbers, the United States had a current account deficit of almost $900 billion. That is 6.5% of the U.S. GDP. They are massively dis-saving—they're consuming more than they earn—but the rest of the world, because the rest of the world is in a cash surplus, has the liquidity available to actually keep feeding American consumption and investment habits. That money has come from Japan; then China was added to the list; and now it's the gulf states and the oil exporters who are the sources of funds.

For the moment it looks like it's in balance, but the scale of the disequilibrium is so large that one day investors could wake up and decide to no longer keep such a massive stock of savings flowing to the United States. At that point, adjustment would have to happen; it wouldn't be pretty, and it wouldn't be an easy, direct thing, so we've flagged that.

Third on the list is the suspension of the Doha Round. There is a little glimmer of opportunity between now and July, when the U.S. President's negotiating mandate expires, but we think the likelihood of that round being completed is probably one in three, even one in five.

Because of the imbalances and because of the surplus we have with the United States, if the Doha Round fails, we go back to a very protectionist U.S. Congress, and we have to think immediately about Canada's economic interests. We've seen the whole round of softwood lumber. You know that far better than I do, and what it translates into in terms of economic cost and job losses. We have to be very mindful of the fact that if we can't proceed multilaterally, we go back to bilateral trade deals.

Last, we have the emerging markets themselves, which are competition every day. China has now surpassed Canada as an exporter to the United States in one month. Three years from now that'll be the trend: China will be more important to the United States than Canada. The flip side is that there is a huge market of consumers there, and Canadian business has to find a way to tap into it.

I'll just give you a little graphic as to how big the U.S. current account deficit is. It's gone on for a long time. It actually started with Bush, the father, and it's gone on to Bush, the son. My fear is that it'll be the next president who will have to actually solve the problem. The scale of the imbalance is unprecedented, really, in economic history.

Again, I think there's a very strong consensus among economists. We know what the problem is. How do we solve it, then? Over the three volumes of our report, we point to seven strategies. I'll go through them very quickly because I've talked about them already.

Strategy number one is to embrace productivity and competitiveness as a national priority within Canada. I spent six months coming up with this picture to try to give you a graphic image of what a national productivity strategy would look like.

At the core are human capital, physical investment, and innovation. Every business, every organization, and government policies all have to be wrapped around that, but around it you have to put a national operating environment. The Canadian economy is highly balkanized; we've created barriers at the provincial boundary lines, we have misalignment between federal and provincial regulations, we have all sorts of tiny barriers to competition that have really made it hard for our business to achieve optimal scale and to compete in the world.

Around that, we're now integrated within North America, and of course we're part of the global economy, so a national strategy has to have a plan for all of those; you have to find a way to incorporate all those elements into a national strategy.

Strategy two, therefore, of the five in volume one, is that we believe it's critically important, as we say, to create a single Canadian market. And that means reform and adjustment on many fronts, improved alignment of regulations, and reduced barriers between provinces—barriers to human beings, to goods, and to capital.

We need to develop innovation strategies within businesses and governments to foster knowledge creation and innovation within Canada.

We need to reform the tax system for productivity. There we point to things like working income tax credits, as the municipal task force in Toronto recommended, and the removal of capital taxes, but also to improved alignment of our tax system at all three levels. And cities, arguably, are the victims right now in terms of fiscal imbalance in the country. Cities don't have the same fiscal capacity as the other two levels of government, so our third volume focuses on that to a huge degree. There's been tremendous media pickup in the last week on our cities work.

Last are investment in infrastructure and of course keeping the border open. We're doing a very interesting study right now at the Conference Board, looking at how trade has been affected since 9/11 and whether the border is working as efficiently as it should. As you can see, this shows you Canada's relative R and D performance within the OECD. We're, sadly, the little black line at the bottom. We are so far behind the field it's very striking—little countries like Finland are now blowing us away in terms of investment in research and development—and too much of that is public sector investment. The private sector makes up only about a third of overall R and D investment within Canada.

Strategy three is to rethink the workforce. We've done a lot of work on immigration policy and on the need to retain older workers, change our attitudes towards older workers, raise the level of investment in education, and ultimately, embrace the concept of lifelong learning. So we have a very complete agenda there. I won't address that in more detail now.

Strategy four, and this is what you care most about, is that we need to rebuild international trade and investment into the national productivity strategy.

I see that some of you are flipping pages right now. This presentation is not identical to the one you have, but it's all in the report, if you take a look at the report.

The elements of a national trade investment strategy for us include re-becoming a major player in foreign investment. Gilles, maybe you want to speak to this, because you actually did the research on this.

11:25 a.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Business and Society, Conference Board of Canada

Gilles Rhéaume

There's some additional information in the PowerPoint presentation about how we've slipped, in relative terms, in being able to attract foreign direct investment. Basically, since 1997, we've actually been investing more abroad than foreigners have been investing in Canada. Even on that basis, our share of Canadian direct investment abroad, as a share of total global foreign direct investment, has been declining.

So we're a small player, and a declining player, in terms of this whole global investment climate. And that is something that will affect our trade performance moving forward, because, as Glen mentioned, of the interrelationship between investment and trade. So as we're focusing on international trade, and as you're looking at international trade policy, you really have to integrate that with an investment policy by making sure we have a strong investment climate here in Canada that can attract those types of investments and by promoting investment abroad.

We've done some analysis of what the factors are that are impeding foreign direct investment in Canada, and we can go into that detail during the question period.

11:30 a.m.

Vice-President and Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada

Glen Hodgson

Now I am going to link that to trade in services, because our share of trade that is services is actually in decline while the rest of the world is seeing services grow. There's a huge irony there. Services are 70% of our domestic economy. They're only about twelve and a half percent of our exports. Part of that is because resources are so important, but we believe part of it is because we haven't really focused on services in a strategic way. It flows back to the balkanized domestic economy. We have insufficient scale. We have too much protection, and if you protect too much at home, your firms are not positioned to go out into the world and be able to compete internationally. It's no surprise there that the services aren't doing better, and really there's very little national debate or discussion around trade in services, and yet that's what most of us do. Seventy percent of our workforce is in services.

That flows to the third point, embracing integrative trade. We have to now understand that you can't treat exports and imports as separate pieces. You can't separate inward investment from outward investment. You can't separate sales from foreign affiliates from exports. They're all really part of the package, and when our business community thinks about international business, they're trying to make themselves as competitive and as efficient as possible, and government policy has to align around that. We have to ensure that all the instruments of government policy are supporting integrative trade rather than the traditional model where exports were good but we really didn't want to import too much because that was then competing against domestic industry.

The fact of the matter is imports are critical to exports and critical to the operation of our domestic economy. So if we put up artificial barriers to imports, all it does is raise costs and make us less competitive.

Fourth, and perhaps more importantly, we've got to reposition Canada as a leader in multilateral negotiations. Our strong view is that we've been pushed out of the inner circle of the trade negotiations. We're not part of what was called the “quad”, the quadrilateral. We've been pushed aside by Australia, and the frank reality is that our inability to address some of the sacred cows in our economy, things like supply management—and Gilles can talk more about that than I canvand even sectors like shipbuilding—If you can't offer something up in a trade negotiation, you can't expect to win something back in terms of improved market access, and that's where Canada is now. We're really not seen today as a serious player in trade negotiations because we have not been as forthcoming in our willingness to open up our national economy to others. If you can't open up, you're not going to be part of the story.

We also think that if Doha does not succeed, we have to have an alternative strategy. Think about deepening the NAFTA relationship, expanding it to more sectors, looking at things like non-tariff barriers and our alignment on regulations with the United States, and again, regulation is a very insidious and clever way of keeping goods out of markets. And we should also be thinking about other priority markets, liberalizing with other markets in the world, because the United States under George W. Bush has actually signed 13 bilateral free trade agreements and we haven't signed any. We've signed three since NAFTA.

So we're not really part of the game right now. Countries like Australia, and the EU, and China are busy pursuing bilateral regional free trade. Canada has to get back in the game.

Fifth, foreign policy has to support that. Our thinking on this is that clearly the U.S. is job one. That's the most critical relationship. We have to think about our relationship with the United States every day, but we also have to develop a parallel track around China and emerging markets, because they are the new centre of economic growth, without forgetting Japan and the EU, which are traditional relationships. We think it's critically important that Canada now think through all the aspects of its foreign policy with China, with India, with Brazil, and other major emerging markets.

Then in terms of our advice on where to start, we think option two is the best way, which is harder. We understand entirely that for you elected officials it's much harder to go to the public and suggest dealing with the sacred cows and areas of resistance, but that's where the greatest payback is, creating a single market within Canada, making our national economy more efficient, defining a trade and investment policy for the long term, and also the issue of the aging labour force.

Now at this point, Gilles, I think I should turn it over to you briefly to talk about volume two.

11:35 a.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Business and Society, Conference Board of Canada

Gilles Rhéaume

First of all, when we're looking at it in terms of economic performance and the export opportunities we've seen in the last few years, for at least the next 10 to 15 years it will have to do with our rich natural resources. There are global market opportunities being offered; however, we have major challenges in tapping into these opportunities.

On the forest products side, the mill towns are suffering and will continue to suffer as long we cannot renew our forest products industry. Renewal is going to be key. To make that happen further, mills will have to be shut down, which means we'll need to have a strategy for those communities that will be affected. We'll need to focus on investing in more modern, larger mills moving forward.

One thing we found when looking at the pulp and newsprint mills in Canada was that they're old and small compared to the competition abroad. We have to do something about that. We have to encourage the industry to do something about it. We also have to try to diversify the products being produced in the forest products sector and open up new opportunities. We're looking at opportunities for using that fibre to produce biochemicals and bioenergy products. Bioenergy could also offer an opportunity when we're dealing with issues like climate change.

In the agrifood sector, the biggest hurdle has to do with the suspension of the Doha Round. As long as we cannot fix and liberalize our trade in that area we'll have limited opportunities for our agrifood sector. Internally there's a major issue in innovation and the capacity for the industry to produce value-added products.

We're seeing the greatest opportunities in processed foods, higher-quality foods, and foods with specific types of attributes, like low-carb, high-protein, and pre-packaged. That's where the business will be in the future, not only in the industrialized world but also in the emerging economies, as you have growing middle classes seeking higher-quality foods. We have to tap into that, but there are some regulatory barriers that need to be overcome. The regulatory approval processes are slow and cumbersome and are preventing the industry from being as innovative as possible.

On mining, metal prices have been increasing quite substantially. There are great opportunities for Canada in the global marketplace. The biggest problem is that our reserves have been depleting for the last couple of decades. We need to be able to discover new mines. That means we have to permit and help bring about additional exploration so we can make these discoveries. There will be some environmental challenges, which we address in the report. Strong environmental stewardship programs will be required, because they will most likely be in environmentally sensitive areas.

On energy, because we have rich energy resources, we could become an energy superpower, but in the long term that will have major environmental consequences. We have an opportunity to become a clean energy superpower, meaning that as we develop our energy resources, we also have an aggressive strategy in developing new environmental technologies. There are already some pilot projects in existence, and we have to tap into those and build on the skills resulting from research and development in this area. If we can make this happen, it will offer great opportunities for Canada, not only in the coming decade but at least until 2030 or 2040.

11:35 a.m.

Vice-President and Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada

Glen Hodgson

Very quickly, on cities, it was the third volume released last week. We have become an urban nation. Often our perception of ourselves lags behind reality, but the reality is that half of Canadians live in the ten major cities. Two-thirds of the jobs created in Canada over the last decade were created in those ten major cities, and 80% of our GDP is produced in cities.

It's interesting when someone from a think tank like the Conference Board comes up to Parliament Hill. You have parliamentary committees on all sorts of things, but is there a committee on cities? In the history of our political institutions, the challenge we have is keeping pace with the changing nature of our economy. We think all levels of government own the city agenda. This is not something on which we stick to the Constitution, with provinces being the sole custodians of cities, because the federal government has huge engagement already with our cities. It has it through immigration settlement; it has it through investments in secondary education—it goes on and on.

We need to invest more in things like infrastructure and industrial ecology. In our report, the two big areas that we identify in which we think a fundamental shift of attitude is required are infrastructure in our cities and particularly transportation.

It is really striking. I have a chance to travel across the country almost every week. Vancouver is the only airport right now that is getting plugged into the rapid transit system within our national economy. It's very striking to land at Pearson International Airport, to have to take a $60 cab ride to get downtown, and to not have any rail. It's the same thing in Montreal. The VIA Rail line is one kilometre away, but in over fifty years we haven't found a way to take the train into Dorval, into Trudeau International Airport. It's really striking. That's an area of critical investment, we believe, as is the whole concept of industrial ecology.

The fact is that we have to think about our cities more as closed systems. Rather than dumping waste outside our cities, find ways to use things that are byproducts as inputs in other production processes. A very different mindset is required for our cities.

We try to finish every presentation with a positive tone. This is warranted because we don't have to wait for someone else to fix our problems. We actually have a good sense of what the challenges are, and we have the tools in our own hands. It's really a question about leadership from governments, from parliamentarians, and also from the private sector and from little think tanks like the Conference Board, to identify the challenges and then offer up opportunities.

Our role is not to carry out the action. We're here to really stimulate debate. I hope we have been able to contribute something to your debate today. We have lots of material and more slides, but I think we're now here to answer your questions.

Thank you very much.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

We'll now go directly to questioning, beginning with the Liberal Party and Mr. Bains for seven minutes.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

Thank you very much, Chair. I'll be sharing my time with my colleague Yasmin Ratansi, but I have a few questions.

First of all, I want to thank you for your presentation. There was a lot of good information to digest. I agree with your concluding remarks. It is about leadership, and we can take control of our own destiny. We can really take ownership of some of the recommendations that you proposed.

I do want to talk specifically about a couple of areas that I didn't have an opportunity to speak to you about the last time you were here at the committee. One has to do with China.

You alluded extensively to China, and you mentioned China as a key component in the emerging markets. This is a criticism I have of the government, and it's something I do want to share. I had an opportunity to look at the Conservative Party platform with respect to international trade, and China was not mentioned in it. This is something I find deeply disturbing and concerning, simply because, as you indicate in your report, it's a very important market for us.

There are two components, and I would like your thoughts on them. One is the fact that we are losing out on an excellent opportunity in a key emerging market in China, both in terms of the growth opportunities that exist there and also in terms of integrated trade, specifically in regard to the fact that China now will become the number one importer into the United States and will take over the role that Canada currently has.

In June's trade position, China was the number one importer into the United States and we were number two. There is some growing concern that we are losing position to China. So my question to you would be how we can develop policies at the integrated trade level to cope with that changing dynamic with China. You indicate that we need to create a comprehensive and high-level China strategy, but I think it also needs to tie in with the United States vis-à-vis the integrated trade model you propose. Could you elaborate a bit on that?

11:40 a.m.

Vice-President and Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada

Glen Hodgson

It's an excellent question, and something I've actually thought a lot about over the years.

Let's start with the facts. Canada's market share of the Chinese import market is only about 1.6%. Our exports may have actually fallen in 2006. China's imports are growing at 20% to 25% annually, so our market share is shrinking rather than going up. We had a little run-up as commodity prices went up, but we've suddenly hit a plateau and we're going down again.

We have to look at China as an investment-led market. You have to understand that for Canadian business to succeed in China, it's very unlikely that we're going to fabricate the majority of things here and ship them over in containers and have the Chinese consume them. That will flow, but increasingly we're going to have to think about China as a market into which we have to go as an investor first.

Doing that is not for everybody. It's highly risky. It means you have to form joint ventures. You have to find a local partner you can trust. You have to protect your technology and your intellectual property. The Chinese are getting better all the time in terms of managing intellectual property, but they're not there yet.

It really starts with the integrated trade concept, with understanding that it's a question of how you can fit China into your supply chain and how you fit into the Chinese supply chain. You almost have to think about it as a triangle.You mentioned the United States, and you're absolutely right that we have the risk of being displaced in the U.S. market by lower-cost Chinese goods. I think of a sector like auto parts, for example, which over the next five to ten years will definitely be at risk from standardized auto parts being manufactured in China.

At the same time, American business has found a way to go to China. Something like 55% of China's exports are actually coming from factories owned by foreigners, largely Americans.

So we're already plugging in, but it's not very transparent. We have to find a way to actually go further there and ensure that Canadian companies can go directly to the market. That goes directly to a place like my former employer, Export Development Canada.

EDC has had the power to help companies go abroad as investors for a long time now. I was actually an official at the Department of Finance in the early 1990s, when Parliament decided to give to EDC the power to support outward investment. However, there has been an unwillingness on the part of the government as a shareholder, and even the board, to see that particular role carried out.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

Sorry, just very quickly, because I'm sharing my time, that's my secondary question. We had Eric Siegel come in, and we confirmed that appointment.

We discussed the role of EDC. Because of your experience at EDC, and in light of the fact that we'll be having a legislative review of EDC's mandate next year, what opportunities do you think exist that we can incorporate into that with respect to the China strategy and the integrated trade strategy? What opportunities exist in terms of how we can empower EDC, maybe not to further its mandate but to explore some of the opportunities that exist to provide us with the tools to catch up or take an aggressive role in China, especially with this notion of integrated trade?

11:45 a.m.

Vice-President and Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada

Glen Hodgson

There are really two fronts. You're speaking about my former employer here, so it's very close to my career experience. One is that EDC already has the legislative authority to support outward investment. They can do it through equity. They have a significant critical risk program. They can do things throughout the whole supply chain to do more.

There has been a reluctance, though, on the part of the government—and this goes back over twelve years now—to see them carry out that role, so I think this is a chance to really have a mindset change. As I've talked to my friends at International Trade Canada, within Foreign Affairs, they're there. They understand this entirely. Some of their senior officials have been in China, serving Canadian trade interests for eight or ten years. Now it's a matter of aligning the legal authority with the activities of the organization.

I also think there's a power. If I were going to give advice to this committee as you do the EDC act review, I'd think very hard about giving EDC the ability to also support imports, particularly imports that are critical to exports. It's not lost on me that the U.S. Export-Import Bank, fifty years ago, was given the power to actually ensure that imports could be financed on competitive terms, because somebody understood that imports are integral to exporting. You have to really develop the whole suite of powers to ensure that all the government programs and institutions can support the whole gamut of international trade.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Navdeep Bains Liberal Mississauga—Brampton South, ON

I'd just like to share my time with Yasmin Ratansi.

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Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Actually, your time is up, Mr. Bains.

We'll go to Monsieur André for seven minutes.