International Trade Committee on April 16th, 2008

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

You've had some good consultations with the manufacturing industry. We always like to make sure they're supportive of the agreement. What kinds of consultations are they, and what indications have you had from them?

[Carol Nelder-Corvari]

We have been in consultations with manufacturers and agricultural exporters on an ongoing basis. We let them know where our discussions are, and we exchange views on the discussions.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I have one final comment. We all want free trade and fair trade, as was alluded to, and to make sure we have labour standards, environmental protection, and human rights for individuals. From your negotiations, what do you see that Canada can do to help Colombia further improve the human rights situation?

[James Lambert]

I'm sorry, did you ask what steps Canada can take or is taking?

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Correct.

[James Lambert]

Okay, let me talk a little bit about, particularly, what CIDA has been doing, because that's where our major investment in human rights is.

Since 1999, Canada has contributed about $4.5 million to the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights in Colombia. We were very pleased with the establishment of that office and were supportive of its activity, and we contributed to it. Close coordination with the office has allowed Canada to raise priority issues such as extrajudicial executions and threats against human rights defenders, to promote human rights training for the military, and to ensure that the office and the whole institutionality of the multilateral system is addressing those important questions.

UNICEF is also an important actor in the whole area of child protection in Colombia. It's very much an issue of victims of abuse in Colombia. So we've provided $1.2 million to protect children affected by violence in Colombia. And we have given $1.5 million to UNICEF to support the implementation and monitoring of reporting mechanisms for children in armed conflict and to follow up on UN Resolution 1612, which specifically addresses the question of child rights in Colombia.

Moreover, CIDA has given $5.8 million to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. I referred to the refugee situation and the displaced people in Colombia. These people are also victims of that ongoing civil conflict, and this responds to the needs of internally displaced people. It provides Plan International Canada with $2.5 million over five years to support preventive measures to help youth avoid becoming participants in violence and conflict in that country. This is just a sample of the kind of work we're doing.

Also, through the global peace and security fund that the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade administers, we're very active in the whole area of security cooperation with Colombia, and that allows us to address important elements of the human rights situation there.

We've invested heavily in the OAS mission that's active in Colombia, which has overseen a demobilization of the paramilitary structures in that country. And although that's an ongoing and incomplete process, I think the OAS has played a critical role.

There's been some flow-back, more into criminal activity than into paramilitary activity. Of course there's a complex interrelationship between human rights abuse, ideological forces, and criminal narcotrafficking forces in that country. But through that contribution to the OAS, Canada has been able to play an important contribution role in the demobilization of paramilitaries in that country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you, Mr. Cannan.

Thank you for that answer. We did go over time, but I think it was very worthwhile to get the answer out.

We're going to move to the second round, and I understand that Ms. Murray will begin the round and will perhaps share her time with Mr. Dhaliwal.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the team for the work you do and the presentation.

I did notice that there was a focus on how this free trade agreement will strengthen peace-building and respect for human rights. I'm interested in strengthening environmental protection, so that's what my questions are about.

I know that in some countries with long-running internal conflicts--for example, I was in El Salvador very shortly after that internal civil war ended--in some of those cases, especially where there are human right abuses as well, there is environmental degradation that results. It's simply not a priority for people when their lives are at stake, and I think that's reasonable.

That is the situation in Colombia. Extractive industries and agriculture are the key trade contributions from Colombia, which we can expect to increase. Extractive industries like coal and mining have been known to result in toxic tailings and polluted waterways. Agriculture, particularly crops like bananas and sugar, and sometimes coffee, which are mentioned here, have also led to soil degradation, loss of habitat, and biodiversity reduction.

That's what my questions will focus on: the impact of the free trade negotiations on the health of the environment in Colombia. I have five questions.

One, where is Colombia currently in international rankings of environmental protection?

Two, what are the specific key environmental concerns in Colombia?

Three, what risk is there of exacerbating those key environmental health concerns in Colombia? Coal mining can lead to problems. Banana plantations can lead to the clearing of rain forests and impacts on climate and biodiversity. So what risk is there as the economy continues to grow and specifically as there is a stoking of that under a free trade agreement with Canada?

Four, in her presentation, Ms. Nelder-Corvari mentioned that Colombia's labour laws need to reflect internationally recognized core labour principles, but the comments regarding environmental laws were bit fuzzier. So is the side agreement going to require the environmental laws to reflect internationally recognized core environmental principles and effective enforcement of those?

Five, what might be a mechanism for monitoring, reporting, and enforcing environmental agreements and adherence to laws through this free trade agreement? Would there be a mechanism such as there is in NAFTA, I believe, for that kind of due diligence on environmental issues?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

That was just over four minutes. I would suggest that if you're not able to respond to all five questions in one minute, you might be able to provide Ms. Murray and the committee with written responses to some of those questions.

I'll let you pick the ones you want to answer right now. Thank you.

I'll give you two minutes. How's that?

[Dean Knudson, Director General, Americas, Department of the Environment]

Great. Thank you for the questions.

To the first question, I don't know their actual ranking, but that's an easy one for us to get back to you on.

On their key concerns, most of the negotiations with Colombia--especially near the end, when we were talking about the specifics on cooperation, which was of significant interest to the Colombians--focused on the issues you talked about. They wanted to know about Canada's practices with respect to corporate social responsibility and how they could learn from those experiences. They wanted to understand what we were doing on chemicals management. They wanted to understand what we were doing about biodiversity, which is a very important issue for the Colombians. I suspect that reflects where their negotiations went and what their preoccupations are, but obviously you would have to ask the Colombian government to get a more involved answer on that.

On managing the risks of economic growth, there are specific provisions we're looking to get into the side agreement and the formal FTA. They will require that countries provide a high level of environmental protection, improve their environmental governance, effectively enforce their domestic environmental laws, maintain procedures, and conduct environmental impact assessments. They will ensure that enforcement-related laws and administrative rulings are available to the public to provide sanctions or remedies for violating an environmental law, and that fair, equitable, and transparent proceedings occur. Those are some of the provisions we're looking to get into the side agreement that actually address a number of the issues you were talking about.

On recognizing core environmental principles, a pretty standard provision that we look at is what we call the MEA conflict-of-law provision, which is in the formal trade agreement. I'll ask my colleagues from DFAIT to comment on that further. But it effectively says that those multilateral environmental agreements would prevail in the event of an inconsistency between the free trade agreement and the obligations set out in those multilateral environmental agreements. That's part of the FTA.

On enforcement, I already talked about one of the provisions in the side agreement that deals with effective enforcement. There is also a dispute resolution mechanism in the environmental side agreement. It stops at the ministerial level and does not have a panel.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Is there a further comment from DFAIT?

Ms. Nelder-Corvari.

[Carol Nelder-Corvari]

Thank you for those questions. I want to reply from a corporate social responsibility angle. It's a very serious question.

Our investments are largely in the extractive sector, and for this reason we've had two sessions in Bogotá with our investors, with the Government of Colombia, with the negotiators, where we sat around and talked about how we can do this. It's not always about what's in an FTA, what the details are or what the obligations are; it's about cooperation. It's about respecting domestic laws.

Canada has high expectations of its companies that are operating in other countries. We expect them to follow international principles and standards, such as the OECD guidelines for multinational enterprises, the Global Compact, and EITI, which is the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative.

So we've had these discussions, and actually in these negotiations we're working very hard on a new element, which will be a cooperation chapter. That's not the only place we're talking about CSR, but it's trying to get at some of these issues: what can we do?

The companies are very active in this area. The message I often hear is that when you're operating in regions of Colombia, in the rural areas, you don't go there lightly. It's a big commitment. You're talking about investments. You have to deal with security issues. You have to deal with capacity-building in the regional government.

The concern is, once you start these operations, you're paying revenues. You want transparency. You want the local community to be able to recycle these revenues in a way that can deal with all these issues—environment issues, labour issues, human rights issues, infrastructure, hospitals, schools. You want to make sure things are improving.

Companies have their own brands. It's a risk for them as well. Call it self-enlightened interest, but it's very much a concern for them. They're active in the area, and the embassy is actively working with them. They had a seminar recently in Bogotá, in February. I forget the exact name of it, but it was to deal with business, CSR, and armed conflict--because this is the reality. These companies are very much invested in the communities when they do go in.

So this has been an active part of our discussion, and we're trying to define ways the governments can work together with the industry to ensure exactly what you're saying, that things improve, that increased economic activity leads to positive development for Colombia and does not worsen the environmental situation. These are serious issues, and they're under active consideration.

I can tell you--and I'm sure you'll get the same impression when you go down to meet with our investors and hopefully get a chance to see a project--that they're trying their best to be at the forefront of CSR.

It's worth noting as well—I don't know if you're familiar with the Global Compact, which is a UN organization, and about 3,000 companies, 1,000 NGOs, and union organizations are part of that—that the view of the executive director of the Global Compact was quoted recently in an article in The Economist on corporate social responsibility. The article said:

CSR is a child of openness, he says. Corporate responsibility in recent years has been driven by globalisation. If markets stay open, it will continue to spread. But openness should not be taken for granted: “The day markets close, CSR is over.”

So in answer to your questions, we're trying to make progress on all fronts here and establish new areas for cooperation. Colombia is committed to the same objectives. We are not encountering difficulties in trying to move forward in this regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

I'm sorry, we are six minutes over with that response, so we're going to have to move on.

Monsieur André, vous avez cinq minutes.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome. Globalization promotes economic development, but social and human development is something we also care about. And that is why we are so focused on human rights in Columbia.

Since he was elected to office, President Uribe claims to have adopted legislation and measures to improve the human rights situation. However, as my colleague said, many union leaders have been assassinated. President Uribe said that some human rights lawyers were considered to be terrorists and allies of the enemy.

Americans have criticized the fact that the free trade agreement signed between the U.S. and Columbia, and between Canada and Columbia, does not force Columbia to respect World Trade Organization standards. Has Canada raised the same concern?

It can be said that a free trade agreement with Columbia might improve working conditions and the respect of human rights in that country. In my opinion, President Uribe could have taken some measures before any agreement was signed, such as passing stricter legislation protecting the rights of workers and human rights attorneys.

The concern we have with regard to the agreement is not so much with regard to economic matters, but rather human rights.

[Pierre Bouchard]

Thank you for your questions.

To respond to your first question with regard to the obligation of the parties who have signed the agreement to respect their partner's labour laws and the basic tenets of the WTO, I have to say that this is what we aspire to. Negotiations are ongoing and we believe we will achieve that goal, and more.

You are right to say that, in the beginning, it was a concern raised by the Americans. In fact, there was an agreement. Last year, the Americans had renegotiated the agreement to include that obligation. Canada must also respect these basic rights, and it went even further by including occupational health and safety standards for migrant workers. This is new and fairly interesting. That is what we are aiming for in these negotiations. In fact, we are very proud of this section. If the parties can agree to it, I think Canadians will be very pleased.

As for what can be done to improve the situation of workers, we have to be honest and acknowledge that this type of agreement is only one tool in the tool box. It is an important tool which can help us. A few years ago, as far as labour standards were concerned, there was no mention of human rights. But now, we are dealing directly with the Department of Labour and the unions.

I myself went to Columbia to meet with the main union leaders.Our minister was also there, and he spoke to the union leaders and to President Uribe. The message was clear. Even the Colombian ambassador recognized that one death was one too many.

We recognize that the Colombian government is making an effort. The situation has improved, but there is still work to do, and the Colombian government recognizes this. By being there, and having a strong agreement we will, we believe, improve the situation. I believe that changes can be made with the $1 million envelope which was announced. But it is one tool among many.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Once an agreement is signed, human rights often take a back seat to the economy. Some countries which do not uphold human rights—we will not name any—have signed agreements within the framework of the WTO. These agreements include the respect of human rights and World Trade Organization standards, and much more. But often these measures are not really respected. Economic interests usually take precedence. If business is going well, why stop? I will not name the countries in question; you know which ones I have in mind. These are major economic partners who, at one point or another, violated human rights. And yet we continue to trade with them because it is in our economic interest to do so.

[James Lambert]

I would like to respond at a general level.

You spoke of some elements of the judicial sector—attacks on lawyers or threats to those who participate in the system. Then you made some more general comments about the human rights situation and its relation to economic undertakings. I think it's important to note that the Uruguay government, although it is far from perfecting the situation, has put a lot more money into the judicial system than was the case before. It is also putting money into direct protection of the state. Over $40 million a year is being spent to provide protection to union leaders and other people under threat as they move through the court systems. These are important developments.

You posed a question about whether President Uribe and his government should have to complete this transformation of Colombian society before we engage with them. This goes to the heart of our engagement in the Americas. We're undertaking a very forward-looking approach in the Americas. It is about finding partners and engaging with them. But if we only engage with like-minded countries in the Americas that have attained the same level of rights and protections and socials standards as Canada, it's going to be a pretty small pool we're fishing into.

Carol referred earlier to the comments the Prime Minister made in Bogotá about engaging with these countries while they are in the process of transformation. I think President Uribe and his government are moving the country in the right direction. These are absolute changes, but at the margins. There are still problems that need to be addressed. It's important for us to engage with them and be part of that solution. We shouldn't wait on the margins until the process is complete to sign a free trade agreement. There's a real role for Canada to play there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Monsieur André.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I would like to make an observation. It is not only a matter of politics and social programs. Union leaders have been assassinated. I realize that the social or educational programs in Latin America, South America and in other countries are not the same as ours. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the assassination of union leaders and the violation of workers' rights. There's a difference.

[James Lambert]

I agree that these are important questions the government is addressing. If you're suggesting that it's the only country in the Americas where union leaders are under threat, I would disagree. El Salvador has been mentioned before as a country that's gone through a peace process and made considerable progress. Impunity is a problem that we face throughout the Americas.

These are widespread problems that we have to address—impunity, inequality. Our point of view is that we want to use our development assistance, our security cooperation, and our economic instruments to help give these countries the strength and governance mechanisms they require to deal with these problems.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you, Mr. André.

We'll move to Mr. Fast. We're going to try for five minutes, questions and answers.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll try. I'll start by asking for clarification on one point.

Ms. Nelder-Corvari, you mentioned--and I'm going to quote you here--that “environmental and labour aspects of economic integration will be addressed through the negotiation of side agreements, which will be directly linked to the FTA”. What do you mean by “directly linked to the FTA”? Are you talking about the two agreements being signed concurrently, or are you talking about one before the other?

[Carol Nelder-Corvari]

I was referring to the fact that the negotiations include discussions of labour and environment chapters, which are what Minister Emerson referred to, I think, last time he was before this committee. So for the first time, we're looking at actual chapters within the FTA that will deal with labour and environment.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I want to know, will the FTA be signed without having a side agreement in place?

[Carol Nelder-Corvari]

No, no. It's--