International Trade Committee on May 28th, 2008

[Carl Potts]

Very quickly, we access a program for international trade promotion through Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada called the Canada agriculture and food international program. That program helps industries develop and execute long-term international strategies to improve market promotion and market development in the international markets.

So we deal with market access problems for products, any market access issues related to our industry, and we help to increase demand for Canadian products and promote Canadian products and the Canadian brand internationally.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Sorry to cut you short, I wanted just the amount. What is the dollar amount of that support?

[Carl Potts]

Sorry; we receive about $250,000 under a cost-shared program with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

So that would be $125,000, then?

[Carl Potts]

We receive $250,000 from AAFC and $250,000 from industry.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

So it's $500,000 in all?

[Carl Potts]

We receive $250,000 for that program from AAFC, matched up with $250,000 of industry dollars.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. d'Aquino, could you respond in a minute and a half?

[Thomas d'Aquino]

Yes indeed.

Mr. Julian, when you talk about facts, let me just spend 30 seconds on that issue. It was your party that said that if we entered into the very first of the free trade agreements, which was the cornerstone of many to come, we would lose our jobs, our pensions. We would lose our water, and we would become hewers of wood and drawers of water.

What are the facts? In the last 10 years, Canada, the leading performer in the G-8, has the highest employment generation of the G-8, the highest increase in value exports to the U.S., and consistently higher surpluses in our trade and goods with the United States—vastly different from what you anticipated. In fact, the picture that you painted and the attempt to scare the hell out of people is so at odds with the reality that it's not even worthy, frankly, responding to.

But let me get back to the issue of Colombia. First of all, you mentioned Pinochet. Pinochet is gone. What about the Chile of post-Pinochet, Mr. Julian? Is it a supreme performer in South America? Have you been to Chile? Do you know what the fellow South Americans think of Chile? They regard Chile as the leading economy, and not only the leading economy, but in terms of the reform of its pension system, in terms of its social policy, the leader in South America. So much for post-Pinochet Chile.

The second thing I would say is on labour agreements. I'm in favour of labour agreements that have teeth. That's what I said to Mr. Bains at the outset of the questioning. If you say to me the fine is minuscule, I'm not interested in that kind of labour agreement.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

What fine is appropriate?

[Thomas d'Aquino]

What fine is appropriate? I don't know the answer to that, but it has to be painful, it has to be real, and it has to be significant.

The third thing I would say is this. Of course you heard evidence of continuing violence against trade union leaders. I think that is deplorable. But did you invest an equal amount of time to the seven-times larger factor of Colombians who were being murdered? I'd be interested to know that. The issue of violence in Colombia is not only an issue for trade union leaders, it's an issue for all Colombians, poor, rich, whatever, who are subjected to violence and murder of the kind that we have seen.

All I can tell you is that The Economist has said there's been a dramatic decline in the murder of trade unionists, so obviously the government of Chile has to be doing--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

It's up. It's actually gone up.

[Thomas d'Aquino]

That's not what it says here, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

It's gone up. In 2008 their figures have gone up, and the summary executions have gone up as well.

[Thomas d'Aquino]

I'm sorry, that's not what it's saying right here, straight out of The Economist.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

I'm sorry, we're going to have to continue.

I'd be happy to ask for unanimous consent to have you go on all day, Mr. d'Aquino, but I'm not sure I'd get it.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I want to answer Mr. d'Aquino who asked me to name a Canadian company. Columbia Goldfields is a mining company which has contributed to the displacement of populations in the context of the Marmato historic center. It was in the media last Monday. There are many others.

[Thomas d'Aquino]

Mr. Chair, I don't know about that company, but I'll certainly look it up.

I just want to ask you, do you for a fact whether the individuals who were the so-called displaced favoured this form of economic investment or not? Do you know the answer to that? Because I'm familiar with a lot of mining activity in South America where the local population, that at first may have been reluctant, did decide, when they looked at the level of investment--for example, the investment in teaching how to re-harvest, grow cattle, grow teak, bring in schools--that in fact the investment was a good investment. I can give you examples of that, but I don't know about this particular one.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I do not want to launch a debate with you, Mr. d'Aquino, but 3 million people have been mentioned, and perhaps up to 4 million, as being displaced from a rural area to the city.

[John Maloney, Liberal, Welland, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I would like to hear Mr. Boutziouvis' response. He wanted to respond. The Bloc have already had their questioning. I think we'd like to have questions put and responses made. I don't think the interaction between the witnesses is overly productive in this case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you, Mr. Maloney.

[Sam Boutziouvis, Vice-President, Economics and International Trade, Canadian Council of Chief Executives]

Mr. Chairman, the deplorable murders of trade unionists in 2002 reached as high as more than 200 individuals. Again, it's highly deplorable, but in 2007 that number had dropped to 33 trade unionists, so there's been an incredible reduction in the murder rate of trade unionists.

Coming back to the main point, the high degree of violence in Colombia continues, but there's been tremendous progress, and there was no reason—

We can put in place elements in the free trade agreement with Colombia, including elements regarding greater cooperation, corporate social responsibility, and capacity building. We look forward to seeing those. In addition to the FTA we negotiate with Colombia, which hopefully will be passed by the government once negotiated, other programs and other initiatives may take place that will contribute overall to an improved relationship between Canada and Colombia and allow Colombia to continue to work with Canada to help reduce and take care of some of these abuses that we've been speaking about this afternoon.

So it's about free trade, but it's about much more than free trade. It's about raising awareness and it's about doing more between Canada and Colombia in the future, given the success rate so far in what they have done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

We're going to have to move on and I'm going to have to keep it tight. We're going to hear from Mr. Miller and Mr. Allison, and I'm going to have to ask you to keep it to five minutes for the question and the answer. We have another group that's waiting.

Mr. Miller.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

I'll be very brief, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to thank the witnesses today, not just for coming but for excellent presentations, particularly from Mr. d'Aquino. Your obvious knowledge and understanding of international workings, including trade and human rights, is to be commended, and you speak in a very educated way on it. I wish opposition members, some or all of them, were listening. It was, I thought, quite ironic that you very, very easily picked out the ideology and unbiased rhetoric of the NDP and the Bloc as far as this issue is concerned.

One thing I can tell you, in response to a question you asked here earlier, is that when we were in Colombia a couple weeks ago, we heard of no examples of Canadian companies down there that had perpetrated any of the so-called allegations of some of the Bloc members.

We heard of no government involvement in any deaths of union leaders, but I can tell you that we did hear allegations of involvement of some union activists in illegal activities. The one thing we really found on the positive side down there was the great improvement the government of Colombia under Mr. Uribe has made in improving murder rates, kidnapping rates, crime, human rights, and everything. Yes, they certainly have a long way to go, but they're working on it and I think that's to be commended.

This time, Mr. Chair, I'm going to turn it over to my colleague Mr. Allison.