International Trade Committee on June 2nd, 2008

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair. Once the witnesses have given their presentations, could we at least just have five minutes to ask questions? It would be interesting, given the amount of information we have been given. I do not see why we have to stop at 5:30 p.m. If everyone is in agreement, we can have a round of five minutes per group.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

I'm sorry, we're going to have to discuss that at the next meeting. In this meeting we're going to proceed in this manner, and you've got one minute left.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

I take it that you are in agreement, Mr. Chair.

There seems to be an anti-union culture, in government as well as in business. It actually seems, given the assassination attempts against you, that government and business do not want unions any more. That also explains why it is impossible to charge and convict people.

Is that the situation on the ground?

[Luis Hernán Correa Miranda]

There is no doubt in my mind that the companies are supporting the government, and vice versa. We have a perfect duo here. In other words, the number one supporters of the Uribe administration and their policy are the companies, through the different mechanisms they have. They are the number one supporters of re-election of Mr. Uribe.

I also want to finish by saying that I fully agree with Ms. McFarland. I want to say that it is important for Canada to preserve its image, its history of respect for human rights, of valuing fundamental labour rights. I believe that for the Colombian people and for Colombia workers the signing of an agreement with Colombia would be immoral under the current conditions. There is no respect for these rights.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to ask Sénor Correa and Ms. McFarland the following question. One of the most controversial aspects that we've learned about on this proposed Canada-Colombia agreement is the idea that if there are continued killings of labour activists, human rights activists, the Colombian government, through a very convoluted process, would pay a fine into a solidarity fund. A leading editorial said the idea of a dollar amount being rewarded for each extrajudicial killing, as if murder can be bought, is horrific.

My question to both of you is, do you feel in any way that this type of dollar amount or fine, treating murder as if it was a speeding ticket, is going to encourage the Colombian government to actually increase the human rights in Colombia and decrease the murders we're seeing there?

[Luis Hernán Correa Miranda]

I do not believe this would work out. I agree there's no price tag you can assign to life. When we talk about a solidarity fund, I do not understand. After the damage you have done, there is no solution, because this solidarity fund is agreed on between the members of the agreement. This is something for training. It is not going to improve the labour conditions of all workers.

We need to go beyond that. We need to go beyond assessing the damage to workers. The damage to work goes beyond just the loss of work. All we need to do is to prevent all this. We need to prevent and not cure. It would make no sense to just work through a fund. We need to prevent these kinds of violations. We believe that under the conditions we have in Colombia and under the Uribe administration, this kind of agreement should not be signed, because there are no ethics, there are no values respected. They are not taking into account the fact that labour rights are an integral part of human rights. It would be a catastrophe to sign an agreement under such conditions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you very much. It was right within the time.

Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. McFarlane, you have spoken a great deal about the number of problems related to violence in Colombia. We know very well that the long-term effect of a free trade agreement is to help people to come together. Since Canada is a peaceful country, it is possible that the mere fact of dealing with Canadians may make Colombians more peaceful over the long haul, because there will be more and more trade.

Mr. Miranda said something quite remarkable. He said that trade unionists are literally hunted in Colombia. If I have properly grasped the country's history, the trade unionists started out with the FARC. They are not any more, for various reasons. Perhaps the government is anti-union, but the unions have supported the FARC for a very long time.

Would a free trade agreement not be a good opportunity to ease tensions? The country's economy would be improved. If we halt this agreement with Colombia, as you are requesting us to do, there is a danger of putting unions and workers in jeopardy. There is even a danger of some families and plants going bankrupt.

I would like to hear your opinion about that.

[Maria McFarland]

For one, I think there are different forms of engagement that a country can have with Colombia. You don't have to engage through trade. You can engage through assistance and many other ways that would be more productive and would not raise these questions of whether you are engaging in trade with a country where workers' rights are being violated.

As to whether you would be penalizing unions or harming Colombia's people, I think right now the best way to help Colombia and to help its unions is by delaying consideration of a free trade agreement. This is a unique opportunity, one that will not come back again. This is also connected to the side agreement issue that Mr. Julian raised. You cannot, through a side agreement, create the same incentive that you have now, which is potentially holding up a free trade agreement and not having a free trade agreement unless certain steps are taken. Once you have a side agreement, sure, maybe they'll have to pay into this fund, they'll have to pay sanctions. Those are very minor issues compared to holding up a free trade agreement.

Getting reforms by the Colombian government has been, in our experience, like pulling teeth. It's been extremely difficult, and it's only because the U.S. Congress has held up the FTA that we've seen some movement.

I think the pressure needs to be kept on, and that is a way of engaging that will help Colombia's workers more than just about anything else you could do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Petit.

I am sorry, again, that we've had such a limited time. We're going to have to revise our consideration of that. You were excellent witnesses, and I very much appreciate the time you all took to be here today. Thanks to Mr. Miranda, particularly, for being in Canada for this event, and to your brothers and sisters in the Canadian Labour Congress who facilitated your visit. We appreciate your being able to be here.

Also, via video conference--and saving those greenhouse gas emissions--I appreciate the time of Ms. McFarland, from Human Rights Watch, and Jeffrey Schott, from the Peterson Institute for International Economics.

Thank you for being with us today. Sorry the time was so short. I know our members would have a lot more questions if we had more time. But we don't, and we'll have to conclude it with that.

Thank you again for coming. The meeting is adjourned.