International Trade Committee on June 4th, 2008

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Don't waste time.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

They're my five minutes, Sukh, and I can spend them any way I want.

I'm going to share my time with Mr. Keddy. I have just a couple of points.

Mr. Cruess, I want to thank you guys for what you do in terms of leading and in terms of corporate responsibility. I think you're doing a great job. We had a chance to speak to some of your people in Colombia and were very impressed by your example.

The concern we have is we talked to the trade unions in Colombia who said they have this list of Canadian violations, but yet can't provide anybody. I sense that there's not a whole lot of credibility that I can see when someone can make those kinds of outrageous statements and not be able to back them.

The question I have for you, Mr. Cruess or Mr. Torres, is how is it that a government that's been panned by some of our witnesses--as well as what we've seen down in Colombia by some of the trade groups--can actually win a second election with 62% of the popular vote, and, quite frankly, is shown to have almost 80% support? It seems outrageous to me that we could have all these statements about the government. We know it has issues; we're not denying the fact that there are issues in Colombia. But how is it that a government--supposedly as corrupt as it is--can get re-elected with 62% of the vote and have an 80% popular vote?

That's my only question for Mr. Torres and Mr. Cruess. Go ahead.

[Leigh Cruess]

I'll be glad to tackle this first.

I actually have copies of the most recent polling information that we've been able to obtain through the Gallup affiliate in Colombia, the polling organization. Mr. Uribe currently has a 79% favourable rating; he's actually down from 82% earlier. He's extremely popular with his own people. There does seem to be a bit of a disconnect because he was democratically elected twice--the second time with a larger plurality--and, frankly, enjoys approval ratings that I don't believe any Canadian prime minister has ever enjoyed in the history of our country.

I also have information about the favourable and unfavourable ratings for various institutions of the country. It's very interesting because the most favourably viewed institution in the country of Colombia is the military forces. The three most unfavourably viewed institutions in the country are the FARC, the ELN, and the paramilitaries. The paramilitaries enjoy the largest favourable rating at 3%, with 91% unfavourable.

Colombians have a very favourable view of their governmental institutions, their democracy, and their country. They're very proud of their country. They're struggling with insurgency, terrorism, violence, a lack of education for many of the people, frankly, and lack of opportunity. But it isn't for lack of effort on the part of their government, I don't think, to make things better.

It kind of boggles my mind that we as a country wouldn't want to get more engaged to assist them to make the transition from the state that they've been in, to a more developed, advanced, secure, and prosperous situation.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Thanks.

Go ahead, Gerald.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

You have two minutes.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Okay. I have a couple of issues.

First of all, when we were in Colombia we met with the International Labour Organization. I got a bit of a mixed feeling from them. They certainly recognized the need to have an office there. They certainly recognized the long history of abuses that have occurred in Colombia. At the same time, they had a very good rapport with Uribe's government. They have weekly meetings with the Minister of Social Protection. They had a list of issues that they talked about.

These are the quick facts that they gave us. Trade union members have increased in Colombia in recent years. The total budget for the union protection program has grown 300% since 2002. I'm not saying that's enough, but that's what the International Labour Organization is saying. There have been 1,246 teachers relocated for safety reasons. They're tracking all of this stuff. They're keeping an eye on it.

There's a program to protect labour unionists in Colombia today. Since that program has been instigated, none of the labour unionists in the program have been murdered—there are still labour unionists being murdered, but none in that program have been murdered.

Sitting around this table, we can't imagine 200 labour unionists being killed in a year. None of us can. However, that number went from 200 to 26 in 2007—and you've already mentioned that it has gone up again this year.

I mention those things because here's a country that's headed in the right direction, and I really question what happens if we say to them now that all the work they've done is for nothing because it's not enough yet.

It isn't enough yet, but I don't know if we reward that or penalize it and how they accept it themselves.

Does somebody want to comment on that? It's a tough issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

If that was a question, I'm sorry, but we don't have any time for answer.

It's not the first time, Mr. Falconer.

I think we could do a quick round and try to get everybody in. We're going to go with a two-minute round, so keep it a quick question and quick answer, if you would.

Mr. Dhaliwal.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is to Mr. Pagé and Mr. Falconer.

Do you think the implementation of free market reforms have been paralleled by a dramatic increase in the state's direct involvement in human rights violations in Colombia, yes or no?

[Gilles-Philippe Pagé]

As I said, PBI doesn't have an opinion on the free trade agreement itself.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

No, I'm not saying free trade; I'm talking about free market.

Mr. Falconer.

[Roger Falconer]

I really don't have a comment on that.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

To Mr. Cruess, when you started your operations in Colombia, did you provide helicopters, vehicles, or any logistical support for military operations to carry out your business?

[Leigh Cruess]

The answer is no.

Ecopetrol, which is a state-owned company, has a relationship with the Colombian military.

Ocensa has a relationship with the Colombian military in two areas. When right-of-way has to be investigated, it's mandatory for security reasons that the area be swept by the military first, before personnel, workers of Ocensa or contractors, can go on-site to investigate, for the obvious reasons of land mines and other security issues.

Ocensa also built and maintains the barracks that are used when army units are in the field along the right-of-way. In those, the army personnel are supplied with beds, food, shelter, showers, etc.

There is also a very small monthly stipend that is paid through the Colombian military, with very strict guidelines that it must be spent on the training that I discussed in my notes about respect for human rights by military personnel.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Do you pay it on the lands from which Colombian people were displaced--

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Sorry, your time is up.

Monsieur Cardin.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let us imagine a free trade agreement with precise conditions on human rights and workers' rights. The agreement would impose those conditions on the government and on our companies wanting to go to Colombia. They would therefore be required to apply those standards of human and workers' rights.

If that were the case, would you be in agreement, given that Canadian companies doing business in Colombia could be sued by the Canadian government if they did not fulfill the conditions? The conditions would be in order to provide the Colombian government with an example of how standards of human and workers' rights are applied.

[Vladimir Torres]

Every single business operating in a country where there is a legal framework should comply with that legal framework.

If a Canadian company, or any company whatsoever, is acting within Colombia where there is a rule of law and where there are labour standards complying with the ILO, with our environmental standards, reinforced and enhanced, say, by side agreements to a trade agreement with Canada, when you have that rule of law, every single company has to comply with it.

It's not a matter of Canadian companies or not, it's a matter of raising the standards for everyone.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

We know very well that the rule of law does not exist in Colombia today.

[Vladimir Torres]

On the issue of human rights, again, it cannot be confined within the trade issues, strictly speaking. The issue of human rights is there, nobody is denying that, but the government is dealing with it. The freely elected, democratic, legitimate government of Colombia is dealing with that.

We can choose to express our support to those efforts, or we can choose not to. We think we should choose to support them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

You will have the final question for this round, Mr. Keddy.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will try to be very brief.

On the whole question surrounding the corporate social responsibility, Mr. Torres, I think we have an opportunity in Colombia. We have a country that's headed in the right direction. We have 1,000 Canadian companies who have either a corporate presence in Colombia or an investment in Colombia. Those 1,000 companies have an excellent chance to lead by example. I think we've done that throughout the hemisphere.

I just want your comment on our ability to do that, to lead by example.

[Vladimir Torres]

We are doing that. We cannot say, in all due fairness, that we have always done that.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

No, I completely agree.

[Vladimir Torres]

But definitely...and our contribution is not simply through what Canadian companies can do now. Let's think and jump to the future. Let's think about how you can raise the level, how you can raise the bar for the kind of things you want to see enforced.

No trade agreement goes below ILO recommendations. No trade agreement is going to violate what is already accepted as environmental standards. It's the opportunity to move forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. Cruess, please.