Evidence of meeting #34 for International Trade in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was colombia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal. I just wanted to complete my third question.
If we were to actually implement the principle expressed in the press release--namely, ensuring that there's progress on environmental protection that goes hand in hand with economic progress--what process would you recommend take place prior to tabling another free trade agreement in order to get to environmental protection that is stronger and that has progressed from the days of NAFTA?
4:45 p.m.
Environmental Consultant, As an Individual
What I haven't seen in any of the debates surrounding recent free trade agreements, whether they're in Canada or the United States, is a rigorous look at the experience under NAFTA and the environmental side agreement. What's working? What's not working? Has there been progress towards upward harmonization of environmental rules?
Remember, this is all about having an even playing field. Everybody is playing by the same environmental rules. If not, somebody is going to have an economic advantage.
I just think there needs to be more study. And it needs to be integrated better, and in a much more public way, on the discussion of what future free trade agreements should be doing.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
To Mr. Georgetti, you mentioned that this government brought in an Accountability Act even though they failed, in every single instance, when it came to showing the accountability to Canadians. On the other hand, when I look at....
We're a free trade nation. We need to have a balance between workers' voices and rights and free enterprise. Do you agree that this agreement we are going to form, or the one the government has already declared, balances the rights of workers and free enterprise?
4:50 p.m.
President, Canadian Labour Congress
No, I don't think it does. The comment from Mr. Miller highlights that. Just because you get to go to Bogota, Colombia, on a junket to see a set-up from the government on what's happening.... It's not the real world. If you want to talk about what the real world is, you should go and talk to the Colombians themselves, without a set-up.
These agreements that have been signed, all of them that have been signed by these right-wing governments, are giving more rights to individual corporations that don't have the ability to be sympathetic to human rights or other rights. They have the ability to make money. Some of them are good at it and some of them aren't. The ones that are good at it don't pay attention to anything else.
I was in Shenzhen, China, and I met a 15-year-old boy who lost his hand because of a question that was asked by the manager, who was taught by the free enterprise system, what's cheaper, fixing the boy's hand or amputating it? Amputation was cheaper. That's the question that gets answered.
We negotiate with these corporations every day. We know you have to put limits on them. You have to put safety on the bargaining table. Even though they know it's not good to hurt people, if you don't put it on the bargaining table, they don't do it, because they're not capable of it. The problem with these agreements is that some of these people believe corporations can be socially responsible. They can't. They don't have the structure to do that. We have to temper them through a union structure or through a government structure.
The problem with these agreements is that some governments believe they can abdicate all of their rights and give them to corporations to do it for them, and they don't.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
You mentioned that we implement these agreements with the governments. When we look at the Colombian government, we see that 81 of their congress members are either under investigation or under arrest. What are your thoughts? Can the people in the political arena deliver what they promise or what they signed? I asked a similar question in the House.
4:50 p.m.
President, Canadian Labour Congress
I keep asking the same question: how can we make a deal with people who don't respect human life? That's the point we want to keep making. To negotiate in good faith, you need people of good faith. When the behaviour of a government is such that human life, human rights, and environmental rights are not part of the equation, I'm dubious about whether or not any deal would be binding on their consciences. I don't believe it would. If we thought so, we would be much more sympathetic to a dialogue with them, because we agree about the need to improve human rights. Advancing trade can improve human rights, but only if the people on the other side are people of good will and honesty.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
The Canadian companies that have gone into Colombia have not made a single complaint. The ILO has not reported any human rights violations. The companies from Canada are setting up standards. We are world leaders in creating conditions to respect human rights in that particular country. Do you believe there are any violations by any of the companies doing business with Canadian companies?
4:50 p.m.
President, Canadian Labour Congress
I have no idea. We have no idea whether that's true or not. Who are they? How do they operate? Under what name do they operate? There are a lot of companies that operate by different names in different jurisdictions. We don't know.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to our witnesses.
I appreciate the information we've been able to gather over the last several months from our witnesses and from the opportunity to visit Colombia. We went to some schoolrooms. Mr. Julian and I had a chance to pass out some pins and to see the effectiveness of CIDA. The Canadian International Development Agency has played a strong role in assisting the Colombian government in setting up protection for children's rights.
Since 2005, government has put up $10.5 million to support Colombia's search for peace through global peace and security funds, including $7 million this fiscal year. Some $5.4 million of that has been directed towards security and stability programs such as the monitoring of demobilization of paramilitaries. Approximately $2.6 million has been used to support transitional justice, and $2.5 million has assisted the promotion and protection of the rights of victims of the conflict. Do you think that's a good use of Canadian taxpayers' money?
4:55 p.m.
President, Canadian Labour Congress
Absolutely. We think CIDA does an exceptionally good job for Canada around the world. We work very closely with CIDA on programs like that. It's a great step, but it's not the end. It's just a start in that country. If you got the facts when you were there, I'm sure you know that there's a lot of work still to be done on the rights of human beings.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC
I agree, there's a lot more to be done, and I think it's encouraging to see the progress that's been made.
One supplemental question. You had asked during your opening comments about our not hearing who's supporting this as far as the large corporations are concerned. I'd like to read into the record an unsolicited e-mail by a British Columbian. Basically the subject line reads: “Free Trade with Colombia will benefit the workers, employees and unions in Colombia”. It reads:
Dear Mr. Cannan:
This letter is in support of the Free Trade Deal being negotiated between Canada and Colombia. I am fully in support of the implementation of this deal as soon as possible. It has the prospect of generating many benefits for the citizens of both countries. I have travelled extensively throughout Colombia from each of the major cities through rural areas and tiny, remote towns in the Andes and along both the Caribbean and Pacific coasts. I have had opportunities to talk with people from all walks of life there: farmers, street vendors, army and police staff as well as successful businessmen. With this extensive experience I firmly believe that a free trade deal will provide enormous benefits to the workers, to the cooperatives I have visited, to the business communities in Colombia as well as Canada. It will further extend the incredible positive changes that have been happening which I have seen occurring since I first entered the country in 2001. I have returned to Colombia every year since then for several months at a time and so speak from first-hand experience not through second-hand information. These benefits are not just economic they include better rights and opportunities for the workers and more markets for some of the small businesses and cooperatives I have seen. Keeping this trade door shut will further support those segments of society that are responsible for the harsh and dangerous situation that exist. There is no doubt that there is violence, kidnapping, extortion and corruption. These aspects have been greatly reduced in the last 8 years. By opening up trade it opens up a great window of opportunity that helps the existing democratically elected government to continue its very successful programme of positive change. If there are voices in Canada against this deal I firmly believe they are voices from organizations that truly do not know the situation on the streets, the villages and the officer towers throughout Colombia from Santa Marta through Medellin and Bogota and down to Pasto in the south. They have not seen and experienced the actual conditions and situations of the people who have lost homes and farms to the displacement from the FARC guerillas or to the power of the mafia and their control of the various drug cartels. Those who would oppose this deal have not seen the desire and energy of people who want to work in a fair and just manner and now have more jobs from the investments that are returning to Colombia as it becomes a safer more open society trying to help itself. Canada can help this progress to continue and in the process enhance its own trading options.
I ask that you please put this free trade through the house for passage as soon as possible. It has the potential to further enhance the positive changes that are occurring there. It has the possibility of opening up more details between Canadian and Colombian companies.
Sincerely,
Darren Grams
Williams Lake, B.C.
I'd be happy to circulate that if anybody's interested.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I just wanted to share that. It was unsolicited. I know there are some people who have some genuine concerns--so do I--that the situation is far from perfect. But I believe that providing hope for individuals, such as the ones we've seen there, and others....
The gentleman who came from Vancouver Island--he was in the forest industry--and moved there five years ago is bringing sensitive integration of environmentally sensitive logging to the country, working with the Colombians and educating them to the fact that there are environmental and social issues. Canadian companies are helping to make Colombia a more prosperous and safer country to come.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson
Thank you, Mr. Cannan.
We're going to continue with this round. I'll try to get one more in.
Mr. Dhaliwal.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, again.
My question goes to the president of Canada Pork International.
Could you please tell us how many additional jobs it will create for Canadians if we go ahead with this free trade agreement?
5 p.m.
Executive Director, Canada Pork International
Well, I may need a good accountant.
5 p.m.
Executive Director, Canada Pork International
That's a difficult one to answer because it doesn't work that way. You see, when you slaughter one pig, you need to dispose of all the parts. We need markets for the parts that are difficult to sell somewhere else, so it's a very tough question to answer. But we could mention that it means something like an additional 100,000 pigs being raised in Canada.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Mr. Georgetti, do you have any numbers as to how many Canadians will lose jobs if we sign this agreement?
5 p.m.
President, Canadian Labour Congress
Again, we have no idea, but based on our experience, there will be some. There will be some dislocation as a result of it.
The second question we always ask is, what are the mitigations for the dislocation? As I said, if you ask Canadians what they think about the free trade agreement so far, most of them are poorer or working harder as a result, so they have no faith in that system. You don't have to go to Colombia or get unsolicited letters; simply ask Canadians whether they think they're better off or worse off, or ask Stats Canada. The statistics are there and they're clear. We have not gained any economic benefits for most Canadians. Some people have gotten richer, but most Canadians have gotten poorer in the last 25 years, which is the post-free-trade era. If it works, we're not very good validators.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
So you are of the view, then, that if we sign this agreement, it's only going to benefit the elitist of society, whether in Colombia or in Canada.