International Trade Committee on Feb. 5th, 2009

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Oh, I thought we'd be friends, Mr. Harris. I'm surprised that you would go after me.

It's pretty simple. We've had a number of committees from which government members have walked out. In the last Parliament, a number of committees were shut down because government members walked out. There has not been, in the three Parliaments at which I have been present, a single committee meeting at which opposition members have refused to hear from witnesses. Not a single time has that happened, so that's not the problem.

The problem has been that systematically, because of that 200-page manual, you have Conservative members walking out and shutting down hearings. And so unfortunately, because of bad behaviour in the past, yes, we have as opposition members to make sure that the people's business is done. I think it's incumbent on Conservative members to prove that in this committee they don't have the intention of trying to shut things down.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. Julian has the floor, followed by Mr. Cannis.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I've finished.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. Cannis.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

First of all, there's no motive here; I'll put that on the table. I think the motive is to make this committee work. I know when I chaired the committee some years ago, we never had a problem.

In answer to Mr. Keddy's point--and he makes a valid point--I will respond. If one member from the government is not here, the committee, Mr. Chairman, cannot function. There are three other parties sitting in opposition. The wording here is “one member of the opposition”. If every member does not show up, then the committee doesn't function. What you're looking at is one member from three parties--highly unlikely, Mr. Chairman. If that occurs, God help those members in those parties. Each one of us would have to not show up for the meeting not to begin, whereas on the other side, with all due respect, one member of the government...or if the member from the government does not show up so that we can make the three, then the meeting does not start. The onus really is on us, in response to Mr. Keddy's comment, if I may.

I put that on the floor in a very constructive way. As we have said, Mr. Chair, this committee has worked very well in the past. I think the intent, given these times, is indeed to make this committee work and work well, so that's my reasoning behind the numbers, Mr. Chair.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. Allison.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have two points. I realize we've been around the tree a couple of times here. I think what Mr. Keddy was saying is if we don't stipulate opposition or government, just three members present, we can hear regardless of who shows up. To Mr. Julian's point, no one could walk out because it's receiving quorum to start hearing evidence. If people still leave, we could still.... This is to start the meeting, so if people leave, then the point is that we could still be able to hear witnesses if people are still present.

As I say, back to Mr. Keddy's point, if the opposition's worried about our not showing up, could we not be concerned about their not showing up? It's just a question--three members, three members.

Thank you. It's never been a problem on this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. Brison.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

One of the practical points I think Peter was referring to is that there is a history here with the government walking out--

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Not in this committee.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Not necessarily in this. I can't speak with any memory of this committee, but I have seen it in other committees. It is much tougher to get a coordinated approach among three opposition parties to do that, if we were so motivated, than it is for the governing party. The fact is that this is a check and balance, based on past precedent in other committees, but determined largely by decisions outside those members.

It is a change. If in fact the committee worked well before with the existing rules, I would posit that we can continue with the same rules. We all want this committee. When it comes to issues of trade policy or foreign policy, we want to be as non-partisan as possible. The fact is that the existing rules did not pose a problem in the past, so why would we change them?

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

Mr. Keddy.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

With respect to what Mr. Brison has said, I think we should be clear: I really don't care what any other committee has done or what has happened at any other committee, I think you have to look at the history of this committee. We've always worked in a fairly collegial manner. We've not walked out on witnesses. Individual members have left the room while there were witnesses, and there have been members who've been rude to witnesses, but we've always had quorum and we've always held the meeting.

I'm not going to belabour this. I say we vote on it and move on. But in the issue of fairness and the issue of the history of this committee--not any other committee, but this committee--as long as there are three members present, then that's equal pressure on everybody. I think if you look at the history of this committee there will be three members present for any witnesses.

I say we vote on it and move on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

I think we have a couple more on the speakers list before we call the vote. I'll take your motion and hear our speakers before we go to the vote.

We have Mr. Harris and Mr. Julian on the list.

Mr. Harris.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

If Mr. Brison's argument is to be considered valid, then it's valid that if the opposition members are capable of forming a coalition to try to overthrow a government, for God's sake, they would certainly be able to get together to overthrow a committee meeting, using the same logic as Mr. Brison for validity. There is some history there as well, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I think I'll pass, Mr. Chair. We can go to the vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Okay.

Well, we have a motion. Essentially it is to return to previous practice. This is a motion by Mr. Cannis that says that the chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive evidence and to have that evidence printed when a quorum is not present, provided that at least three members are present, including one member of the opposition. And the rest of it I won't bother reading, because it's pretty stock text about when we're travelling.

Is that clear to everybody?

Yes, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Could you read the actual motion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Yes, sure: “In the case of previously scheduled meetings taking place outside the Parliamentary precinct, the committee members in attendance shall only be required to wait for 15 minutes following the designated start of the meeting before they may proceed to hear witnesses and receive evidence, regardless of whether opposition or government members are present.”

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I'm sorry, I meant Mr. Cannis's motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Oh, I'm sorry. It reads like this: “That the Chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive evidence and to have that evidence printed when a quorum is not present, provided that at least three members are present, including one member of the opposition.”

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

You have read Mr. Cannis' motion. Earlier, you added that Mr. Cannis also wanted a specific mention to “outside the parliamentary precinct.” Thus, within the parliamentary precinct, there would be three members, including one member of the opposition. Outside the parliamentary precinct, we would have three members, including one member of the opposition. If the opposition member is absent, we wait for 15 minutes and then begin the meeting. But within the parliamentary precinct we need to have three members, including one member of the opposition. There is no ten-minute waiting period, there—I would like us to be clear on that. Is that correct, Mr. Cannis?

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

That is correct.