International Trade Committee on March 26th, 2009

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

--but the false positive is the murder of an innocent individual.

Do you have some sense of the number of murders of poor people in Colombia that have actually taken place?

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Point of order, Mr. Chair. Come on!

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Fourthly, the Colombian government and the Canadian government have arranged an agreement that essentially provides for a fine in the event of ongoing human rights violations. Now, the reward is essentially a fine of up to $15 million. Do you find that as horrendous as I do, that you could in any way quantify human life by attaching a price for ongoing human rights violations? In a sense, it's a volume discount on human rights violations.

Do you feel this would make Canada in some way complicit in what is happening, very clearly increasing human rights violations? That's what is the very clear result from reputable organizations. If Canada rewards the administration by signing a free trade agreement, do you think we're complicit in some way in what appears very clearly to be increasing human rights violations taking place in Colombia?

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

You're left with three minutes for a response.

[Jorge Enrique Robledo]

First, let's say that the popularity of Mr. Uribe, in my view, can be explained by his political savvy. I don't want to mention names, but you will know that there have been heads of state in the history of humanity that have committed horrible things, and at the time they did have the support of their citizens. That in itself, that type of support, doesn't mean that you are right.

The second thing that is very clear is that part of the interest of Colombia in signing other agreements or negotiating FTAs with other countries is that it's a way of getting an absolution, a pardon from Canadians and so on--absolution that is not being given by the Democrats in the U.S.

So you do have an ethical problem that you have to resolve, in fact. You have to see what position you will take. Will you take a position so as to quantify these horrors in Colombia, and then when it comes to making financial decisions you say, “Business is business. Let's proceed. Some large Canadian companies will make a profit, so let's take advantage of the circumstances”? That's an ethical dilemma that you do have to solve yourselves. But I can assure you that if you decide to back the FTA, those who approve it will be questioned, here and everywhere, because facts are facts.

I would like to repeat that the Colombian government would not pass a test when it comes to democratic guarantees. It's obvious also, and you can see very clearly, that the land is being concentrated by means of violence in the hands of criminals. Many are paramilitaries who have used violence in order to take over the land, and there is no action being taken by the Government of Colombia that can actually reverse that situation in any way.

There are so many millions of displaced people, people in the country who have had to leave their lands because of the violence that is essentially directed at displacing them. Statistics speak for themselves. The Government of Colombia not only does not act to correct this, but more than once has tried to facilitate the legalization of these lands that have been, of course, obtained by illegal instruments.

Now, regarding the false positives in numbers--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

You have the government essentially providing a rubber stamp for the illegal or forced takeover of land?

[Jorge Enrique Robledo]

In practice, let's say that what ends up happening is that these displacements are establishing a new configuration in terms of land ownership, concentrating the land in very few hands, and that has not been corrected by the national government.

Now, when it comes to victims of violence in Colombia, nothing is done, or at least the government doesn't do much about it. An act that has been approved in recent days brought a certain framework to the way land is owned in Colombia. In terms of false positives, the cases are not just a few; there are several court cases that involve 1,500 individuals. We're talking about very serious violations. We're not the only ones saying they are very serious. The Democrats of the U.S. think they're very serious, and the Democrats are themselves in the world of business. Keep that in mind. So this problem is a very real, tangible problem.

The labour cooperation agreement, the parallel agreement in the Colombia-U.S. FTA, does not change anything. There are some fines, which are really nominal or symbolic; they're not real. I hope nobody thinks that crimes against trade unionists can be solved through fines. That would be scandalous. It would be scandalous to actually think that is the proper way to proceed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

That is nine minutes. We're a bit over--unless, Your Excellency, you wanted to comment.

[His Excellency Jaime Giron Duarte]

If you will allow me, I would like to make a few brief comments.

One comment is in relation to the popularity rating of President Uribe. I agree with the statement made by the honourable Mr. Silva. I don't believe, Mr. Julian, that it's just a question of support by those who are close to the president. It's a sentiment that comes from the Colombian people. Many Colombians think that when they see that there is hope for the future in Colombia.

In relation to the false positives, I would like to say that this was obviously a situation that was actually denounced by the Minister of Justice in Colombia. And as Senator Robledo said, there are lots of court cases currently under way. This means that, in the case of parapolitics, which was mentioned here before, the government has decided, as we say in Spanish, to take the bull by the horns and to confront a situation that is shameful for our country and that shows the need to clean up all levels of government. So these are events that are actually rejected by all Colombians, but they are being dealt with in court.

In relation to the labour agreement and whether it will improve the situation or not, I believe it will improve it. If you read the preamble carefully, it shows not only the wish to preserve the existing norms and regulations, but to further develop international commitments, and the ILO agreements are mentioned in the preamble.

Also, the system that Mr. Julian was mentioning, in relation to the fines, warrants careful reading because it refers to the dispute settlement mechanism that creates different levels of adjudication so that a person, if they can truly show that the regulations have been violated, can take a state to court. In other words, situations will be submitted to three different levels, one of which can define whether a violation actually has been committed in terms of trade and if it deals with trade. In that case, fines can be levied.

We talk about $15 million in relation to the U.S., which is a low amount if you compare it to a human life, of course, as you said. But in fact, in the case of Colombia, $15 million is the equivalent of the budget of the social security department, so it's not a question of compensating violations of labour rights with a fine, but what we want is for that fine to go to a fund that has to be reinvested in the country that has violated the regulations in order to improve labour conditions. Senator Robledo has talked about improving labour laws, and this is one example.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

I'm sorry, we're all getting e-mails. There is apparently a vote in the House and members have been summoned to the House.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Is it 15 minutes or 30 minutes?

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thirty minutes. We have the time.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Is it a 30-minute bell?

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

I don't quite understand it, but we have to depart.

I'm sorry that the Conservative Party isn't going to get an opportunity to ask a question. Normally we would have completed the round. I'm going to suggest that the committee proceed directly to the House. Apparently the bells are ringing. I don't know what the vote is. I am sorry to have to interrupt the proceedings and to preclude the Conservative Party from getting an opportunity to question our witnesses.

I do appreciate your coming. It has been very useful. Thank you for your appearance today.

Monsieur Cardin.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Chairman, according to the memo I've just received, the vote will be held in 30 minutes. We had about 10 minutes to go. It takes four minutes to go to the House from here. We have guests, the senator and the ambassador, and out of respect for them, I am prepared to stay, even 15 minutes, if you wish.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Fine, thank you. This is new information, if you think it's a 30-minute bell. I don't think it's a 30-minute bell.

All right, you can proceed. I'm sorry for that interruption.

We're going to conclude. We'll have one brief question. We have seven or eight minutes, so I will allow the Conservative Party to have their questions, and then we'll have to scamper on over to the House.

Mr. Allison.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the senator for being here today, as well as the ambassador.

I'll just start by saying that I think Mr. Julian would probably be happy if he could get 80% of the vote from his family. I don't know if that would be possible, but you know—

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Fifty percent.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

We'll see.

I do want to comment on Mr. Silva's comments. I think it is extraordinary that a sitting president could get 80%. I understand as well that it was helpful that our committee travelled to Colombia to understand the issues on the ground. Certainly some of this has to do with ideology, the difference of opinion, and where we stand in different parties.

As you mentioned, Ambassador—and my questions are going to be directed to you—certainly this is not the whole puzzle; this is a part of the puzzle, looking at trying to work on free trade deals. I know one of the other parts the government has been working hard on is trying to reintegrate different groups into society. I know President Uribe has appointed a high counselor for social and economic reintegration. My questions are going to revolve around that.

I realize that the whole notion of disarmament, demobilization, and reintegration is huge, in trying to work through the process of reintegrating people into society and demobilizing illegally armed groups. Could you talk to us a bit about the process and what has happened and what the government is trying to do to reconcile peace? I realize people have been involved with paramilitary groups and different groups that have been illegal and trying to destabilize society. What has the government done to try to integrate them back into society? I know we have almost 50,000 people who have laid down their arms. It must be a challenge, when all you've been doing over many generations is fighting. What has the government been trying to do to get these people back with their families and back into society? I realize this is part of the agenda, to try to create jobs for these individuals.

I'm going to let you take the remaining time I have—and I think it's at least five minutes—to comment on that program.

[His Excellency Jaime Giron Duarte]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your question.

Evidently, it is one of the programs that the Office of the President of the Republic has initiated, and as you aptly mentioned, a senior advisor to the president in matters of reinsertion and reconciliation has been appointed. The senior advisor happened to be in Ottawa last month and had the opportunity to converse with some representatives of the media and civil society to introduce the program. It is a program that is moving forward with much enthusiasm and with great opportunities, but obviously with major challenges.

Regarding what the program attempts to do, there are actually two frameworks with respect to reinsertion. In one, through agencies such as UNICEF and the IOM--the International Organization for Migration--the Government of Colombia is receiving assistance for the reinsertion and recovery of children under 18 who have been rescued from illegal armed groups in Colombia. It is a program that is being tended through the Colombian Institute for Family Welfare, and that essentially pursues the presidential advisor's goals for reintegration.

What does the reintegration program in Colombia do? The program seeks to tend to the population that has left the ranks of the unlawful groups. I am referring to a group, as you said, of 50,000 people with an average age of 25. These are individuals who are already past childhood and adolescence.

The program has two goals: first to provide these individuals with psychological and physical care to help them recover and to prepare them for the second stage, which has to do with the acquisition of skills so that they can work at lawful activities. It is a program that has two targets: on the one hand are the reintegrated individuals, so that they can find a way to keep themselves busy with decent jobs; and on the other hand are the families of the actual reintegrated individuals.

Why do we target the families? We have found in this program that many of the people who joined the ranks of the illegal groups did so because their family environments were not environments that encouraged them to stay home. Sometimes they joined because of imitation or because of the need to find work and a lifestyle.

So the process targets two groups: the reintegrated person and his or her family, so that reintegrated individuals can, once the program has been completed, return to their families and be welcomed. However, at the same time, the program works on what we might call the education of Colombian society, and in particular the education of business owners. The objective is to get rid of the feeling of fear that has been and is being generated, the fear that a person feels about linking his business to a person who has previously taken up arms, and to provide spaces to people who have left the program so that they can become useful members of society.

What is the problem? The problem is that the program is currently covering 31,000 of the 50,000 people who have been demobilized. What is happening, evidently, is that there are many desertions. There are people who start with the program, but who do not feel motivated and abandon it. There is reason for concern there, because the question then is, where do they go? Often they return to the illegal groups or form gangs of common criminals.

However, the program addresses this. It has the support of the international community. And on the subject of disarmament, demobilization and reinsertion, or DDR, it so happens that Colombia is hosting the first conference on this topic next month in the city of Cartagena. The objective of the conference is an exchange of opinions between DDR experts from all the world’s countries that have been affected by conflict, so that best practices can be identified, frankly and not necessarily with governmental commitments, and so that the Colombian experience can also be conveyed for the benefit of populations that have been affected by conflicts in other countries

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

I'm sorry, but it appears that we are out of time.

I want to thank you again for your question, Mr. Allison.

Thank you for that response.

Again, thank you to our visitors for being with us today.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

We don't even have one minute left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

We are now adjourned.