International Trade Committee on Dec. 1st, 2009

[Étienne Roy-Grégoire]

That is another point that raises concerns and would be well worth further study. The Colombian legislation allows the State of Colombia to sign juridical stability contracts with companies. We should be asking ourselves how the agreement affects treatment, how the principle of national treatment could extend these juridical stability contracts. This implies stability as far as the issuing of leases, conditions, environmental regulations, labour regulations, taxation, and so on are concerned.

How could the free trade agreement contribute to the extension of these stability contracts that limit the future flexibility of the Colombian state as far as Canadian investments are concerned, for example, that might be in competition with Colombian investments in the country? It is one of the many measures that the Colombian government has established in order to promote direct foreign investment and economic liberalization.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

The right to mine land is issued by the government and the government also issues the exploration rights of companies that set up operations on lands from which people have been displaced.

[Étienne Roy-Grégoire]

Yes. I think we can certainly speculate that this happens quite regularly. As far as statistics on lands that the paramilitary have seized using violence are concerned, the government statistics refer to 6.8 million hectares. Other estimates from civil society or victims' groups refer to 10 million hectares in a country with an area of 100 million hectares. It is easy to do the math; 10 million hectares of land obtained through the use of violence represents 10% of the Colombian territory. Obviously, these lands are not generally of the poorest quality; they are generally the most productive and the most interesting as far as future investment is concerned. We can state that the risk of an investment or a concession being granted for lands that were the subject of forced displacement...

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

In all good social conscience and responsibility, how could the Canadian government accept that a Canadian company invest in a territory that has been the subject of displacements or other actions that go against all human rights? In some situations, people were killed during these conflicts.

[Jamie Kneen]

I think that is why the conclusion of our smaller study is supporting the need for a full-scale human rights impact assessment before moving ahead with the agreement: it's to have enough of an investigation of the different aspects, the different types of investment that could be foreseen, the different mechanisms of investment, and the range of human rights impacts before Canadian lawmakers decide to enter into an agreement that could have such implications.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

That is very much in keeping with the recommendations of the report that was adopted by the committee. The Liberal members also supported carrying out a study on the developments in the situation, so that we would know if the situation was more stable and acceptable before signing anything at all.

My colleague may have questions at this point?

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

During your presentation, you spoke about the committee report that my colleague has just mentioned. The report recommended that a competent body carry out an independent review.

What would that competent body be? Have you thought about which body or organization could be given the mandate to carry out a real, complete and above all credible impact study? Do you have anyone or any group to propose to us?

[Jamie Kneen]

I don't know if we're in a position to make that specific recommendation.

The methodology that we in part based this study on was that of Rights and Democracy, a parastatal organization set up with the mandate to do this kind of work. They have models for research, methodology, and the development of new studies. That would be one possibility. I would imagine that Parliament could also name its own commission or body to do this.

But no, we didn't look at that specifically; we just looked at the issues themselves.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Something in your presentation really struck me, Mr. Roy-Grégoire. You stated that Canada's ambassador to Colombia does not have a mandate to analyze the risks that Canadian investors are facing.

Can you explain what that means to me?

[Étienne Roy-Grégoire]

The risk analysis relates to human rights. In other words, the Canadian Embassy—like all embassies in the Americas, to my knowledge—has the mandate to promote corporate social responsibility. Its mandate is not to audit or monitor corporate practices. Furthermore, it does not have the capacity, or the mandate, to assess the risks that companies face in terms of human rights. The embassy lends commercial services to the companies that need them for reasons related to the environment, business, etc., but not for human rights issues.

This is surprising in Columbia given the seriousness of the human rights situation and the risks that we have observed, although we are not the first ones to have observed them.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You are a part of a research group and today we are talking about Columbia. If I'm not mistaken, you have also studied Guatemala and probably other parts of the planet as well.

Are there anywhere on the planet agreements that could be called sustainable free trade agreements, that are respectful of human rights and the environment? Sometimes you have to step back from the tree in order to be able to see the forest. Over the course of your studies have you found any interesting practices?

[Étienne Roy-Grégoire]

I haven't looked at that issue in particular but this is an issue of consistency. We can assess any free trade agreements that Canada signs with other countries but they have to be assessed in light of Canada's mandate to promote human rights abroad. It's important that that connection be made. Our study has shown that there is a connection.

The hypothesis that more investment equals more development equals more conflict resolution and that this is a virtuous circle for investments, should not be accepted at face value. It has to be challenged and analyzed. It should be examined in light of the facts, which our study attempted to do. Our study shows that this is not a hypothesis that is valid in all situations and especially not in a situation such as that of Sur de Bolivar, which is a particularly difficult situation in Columbia but far from being a unique situation.

I think that a connection has to be made between tools for promoting investment and the mandate to promote human rights and development abroad.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I would like to thank our witnesses for their work. This is very important for us.

Mr. Grégoire, I'd like to begin by reading from an excellent document on free trade between Canada and Columbia that you wrote and that was published in June 2009. In your document you tell us that “Álvaro Uribe himself is one of the main Columbian drug traffickers on a list drawn up in 1991 by the American Defense Intelligence Agency, the DIA, when he was a senator.” Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think that he was 81^st on the list of the main Columbian drug traffickers because of his support to drug traffickers and to drug networks.

You also refer to the links between the paramilitary and the Uribe regime. In fact, you talk about Uribe government representatives and their close ties with the paramilitary who kill individuals on a regular basis and increasingly so.

I'm wondering, then, given those links with the drug trade, both as part of Mr. Uribe’s career, but also today, with the representatives of the Uribe regime who are linked to paramilitaries, and the known links between the paramilitaries and the drug trade, if one of the fundamental problems is that the regime is tied so closely with the drug trade. Is it possible that rewarding the regime by allowing this trade agreement to be put into effect would be in a way encouraging those links with the drug trade that already exist with the regime?

[Étienne Roy-Grégoire]

Once again, I would say that consistency and clarity have to be front and centre in relations between Columbia and the international community. This is particularly true for Canada. There's no doubt that the power of the paramilitary within the state is a problem. This situation has been documented in several reports. Human Rights Watch, in particular, has considered this issue closely.

The problem should be one of the international communities' and Canada's main concerns. I think that is the heart of my message. We need to acknowledge that this is a real and known problem and we need to define a consistent strategy based on that.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I want to continue. Your report is excellent, and certainly all members of this committee should read through it.

The point that you make, I think, is made in the executive summary very effectively:

Colombia continues to suffer widespread human rights abuses, including extrajudicial executions, disappearances, extortion, and threats.

We have also learned in the most recent report from a couple of weeks ago about regular torture done by the Colombian regime.

You also note in the executive summary:

Striking correlations have been observed between where investment--both domestic and foreign--takes place and rights abuses, ranging from murder and massacres and related massive land and property theft to violations of the rights to freedom of movement and to a healthy environment. Human rights violations are linked to efforts by those behind Colombia's murderous paramilitaries to create conditions for investment from which they are positioned to benefit.

So you are very clearly signalling that the problem here is not a direct correlation, necessarily, between Canadian companies and the brutal attacks and violence and theft of land of poor Colombians, but that in a sense the paramilitary gangs that are linked to the regime are land laundering.

Is that not true, that essentially what they're doing is taking the land--

[An hon. member]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

--and once they take the land, that is when they could potentially sell, and do land laundering—

[An hon. member]

--the witness has clearly said there was no link to any Canadian companies. You just can't make that accusation here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Order, please.

Mr. Julian has the floor. You will have your opportunity in just a few minutes.

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

So is not the concern that in effect a Canadian company, not as a result of their own responsibility but because of what has already transpired--as you very clearly indicate in your report--could be involved in that land laundering?

[Étienne Roy-Grégoire]

It would not be reasonable to exclude the possibility that a company is acting in a way that is not socially responsible, one cannot exclude that from the outset. On the other hand, the main problem that our study identified, as you pointed out, was a problem of context. When it comes to investing, Columbia is a particularly problematic location. You summed up the problem very clearly.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

You said in the report that, “increased investment in the extractive sector is at risk of entrenching and even expanding the already astonishing toll on the human rights of Colombians”. So increased investment could very well lead to increased problems with human rights as a result of what these regime-connected, murderous, paramilitary thugs are doing.

Now, could you come back to the issue of Sur de Bolivar and what happened to the union federation, or the agro-mining federation, that's cited in your report? What was the impact there? What happened to those union members once they decided to organize in the mining sector?

[Étienne Roy-Grégoire]

First of all, these are communities that were particularly affected by the forced displacements in the middle of the 1990s. These people were victims mainly of paramilitary violence, but they were also victims of various types of attacks that took place in the context of their work. I mentioned in my presentation the threats from former paramilitary groups that have now reorganized under the name of Águilas Negras, and these can still be called paramilitary groups. So there have been threats. With respect to their leaders, I mentioned the name of Alejandro Uribe Chacón, who was apparently assassinated by the army. This case has been well documented by organizations like Amnesty International. At the beginning of this year, a well-researched article appeared in the weekly, Semana, in Columbia on that case.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Just so that I understand, you're saying that the union leader was killed by the army.