International Trade Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

We are out of time for that speaker, but we will give you an opportunity to respond.

[Gerardo Sánchez]

When one concentrates on figures, it gives the impression that there is some insensitivity in terms of the solidarity that should exist among all workers, and that's not the impression we want to leave with you. You must know that, above all, we are extremely grateful for the interest and the care you are taking in the Canadian Parliament with respect to the human rights situation in Colombia.

This is a struggle we all have, and it pains me to hear the honourable representative say that we are representing the interests or the way of thinking of the Colombian government. That has never been the case. There is much to be done as far as human rights are concerned, and we have indicated this to the government. We have carried out much action to update labour standards so that everything is in tune with the ILO and there is respect for and protection of the unionists' work and their right to strike. We have been constant in this regard.

We act in solidarity, and we wouldn't want any union member to die. Nevertheless, I would like to point out that with respect to trade agreements, some brothers and sisters have devoted themselves to leaving a false image in the international community that the country is a place where the murder of union members is a government policy. This is not the case. This is what we want to make clear here.

We would like to kindly request that you approve the trade agreement with Colombia as a way of creating jobs in our country and as a way of improving labour conditions. We will cooperate with you to improve the human rights situation and the labour situation in Colombia.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you for that response.

We'll now move to the Conservative Party.

Mr. Holder will begin questioning.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Muchas gracias, señores.

To our guests from Medellín, thank you for making your presentations today.

Just to explain, I am with the Conservative Party, which happens to be the government. I say that to give you some comfort, because there is at least one other party around the table that I know supports proceeding with Colombia, and that is the Liberal Party. I don't pretend to speak for them.

I say this so that you will have some confidence that we believe in this free trade deal. We believe that it should go forward and will go forward, and that it respects the integrity of workers and citizens in Colombia. We think it is in the best interests of both of our countries to proceed with this free trade agreement as quickly as possible. Today's testimony was probably the most compelling that we have heard. I say this because you live there, and we don't. All the people who have made representations to us mean well, but they don't all live there. You do.

The people around this table, who I believe want what is best for Colombia and Canada, live here. They don't live with you. I would say respectfully that I myself don't fully appreciate the benefits of proceeding. I'm more committed today as a result of your testimony than I have ever been before.

You spoke of the embargo put on Colombia from Ecuador and Venezuela, and you talked about how it would result in more unemployment and violence. I am compelled to proceed with this now.

Mr. Navarro, I believe you commented that the delays in bringing in free trade would cost jobs and cause violence. It seems that we are affecting the ability of workers and their families to provide for themselves. Could you tell us more about how the embargo and the free trade delays will contribute to violence?

[Walter Navarro]

In Colombia, according to the last report of DANE, which is the agency responsible for statistics in the country, unemployment has increased to 11.5%. This means that in Colombia there are about 2.5 million unemployed. Likewise, exports to Ecuador and Venezuela, which represent 50% of general exports, have decreased significantly. Recently, we might have gotten to 10% in exports, and this is mostly to Ecuador. It's a simple equation. Our exports to other countries have stayed about the same as before, while during the last year what we sent to Venezuela and Ecuador decreased significantly. This has greatly increased unemployment.

In addition, they are expelling Colombians from Venezuela. In fact, they expelled 400 people from the border area, and every day there is violence against Colombians in Venezuela. This has caused many Colombians residing in Venezuela to return home. That contributes to unemployment in our country, and violence in Colombia has increased. The increase hasn't been great, but it can be attributed to unemployment in the cities and in the countryside. We can see no solidarity whatever with the U.S.

We urge the Canadian government, which is in favour of the free trade agreement, to approve the agreement as quickly as possible so we can proceed with exporting our products to your country.

Thank you.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you for that thoughtful response.

I know that my colleague at the table, who is very involved in the trade union movement, made some comments. One that I quite agree with was when he said it is the private sector that pays for the public sector. I thought that was very clear, and I think he was quite correct.

He also mentioned, and you clarified, the number of deaths of trade unionists per 100,000 people. I think you made that very clear, and I appreciate your clarifying that for all of our purposes. As well, when you talked about not working on behalf of the government, you made that response very clear.

The thing I thought was interesting is that my colleague at the table said that you should all stand together. Well, you know what? You're standing for what is in the best interest of your membership and, I believe, in the best interest of Colombians. You have the right to not always agree. I respect that you have the right to not always agree.

If you had a message that you would like to give to your union brothers and sisters in the trade union movement in Canada--and this is a message we will help deliver--may I ask you, please, what would that message be?

[Walter Navarro]

Gerardo will speak to you. He's our colleague from the textile industry.

[Gerardo Sánchez]

A message for Canadian trade unionists as well as for the working class of Canada, for all workers, is that we have set up a union collective, which is a minority within all of the unions of the country. However, we have opened up more and more areas, more and more spaces, to the extent that we see that information that is taken outside of the country is being twisted, and this is done by the leaders of working centres. I'm talking about the leaders, because not all Colombian workers think the way they do, that as a result of Colombia's violating human rights and labour rights, it's not worthy of a free trade agreement.

These voices to the effect that the Colombian workers do not want the free trade agreement do not represent the great majority of workers of the country, who meet in small and medium-sized businesses, who don't have an opportunity to be unionized, who are not represented every year in order to define a minimum wage, because they're a minority that participate a minority of unorganized workers.

As my colleague Walter was saying, out of the 18 million of us in the working force in the country, only 800,000 are organized. Of the 800,000, we represent only 10%, but we have been growing stronger in the country. We have had sufficient moral authority in order to be able to say that not all Colombian workers are against the free trade agreement. On the contrary, the great majority feel that we need a free trade agreement.

This is a brotherly voice. It's in solidarity. This is a message that we send to Canadian workers who are duly represented through you, members of Parliament. We hope for that cooperation, we hope for that approval, which is very necessary for our country so that we can advance with development plans, so that we can create jobs, which is what we need. Because of all these problems with our neighbours we really need to export our products beyond our borders, with the support of the international community.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you, Señor Sánchez.

I have two last points.

Señor Navarro, you made the point that you have a list of unions in Colombia that are supporting the free trade deal with Canada. Could I ask you if you have some way, through our clerk, of being able to provide us with a list of those unions so that we have that as a matter of record for our information, please? You don't have to give that today, but if you could, we would ask you to provide it.

[Walter Navarro]

I'll try to send it electronically.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Perfectamente.

Many of us around this table are working hard to put this deal together as thoughtfully as possible. If there's anything I've heard from the testimony you have all provided today, it's the urgency of doing this. I do not wish to be negative, but if it does not happen, what are the implications for the people of Colombia generally, and for the trade union movement and their families? What is your opinion, please?

[Luis Fernando Cadavid]

I'm connected to the clothing sector. It's an organization, like Leonisa, that has 1,800 mothers and heads of households. We export 40% of our production. If we do not reach agreements with countries of the north that are more developed and that accept our production, then the situation for us will be pretty complicated. It's not easy to have the technology. We don't have that high level of development in the manufacturing industry. That's why we want things to be clear.

In Colombia, there are two central unions. Numerically, CUT is the majority, but qualitatively speaking, connected to the production sector, it's SCT. Among our leaders, some say no to the free trade agreement. Within the SCT this has given rise to an inter-institutional team comprising employers and workers and the state itself. Most of those involved are the employers and workers who would be directly affected if a free trade agreement were not signed.

A free trade agreement is a business by which interests are negotiated. I think Canada and the United States and Colombia are interested in establishing guidelines in the trade relationship. We're very grateful for the fact that you are demanding, in the final documents, that there be defence of human rights and the right to free association, because this is the way we can grow.

We need to grow as an industry. We grow if there's employment. If there's employment, there are workers. This is an opportunity to organize workers into unions.

For example, one of the requirements has been eradicating child labour. The right to strike, the right of Colombia in terms of agreements.... It's a request from us to you that these agreements be supported and that these agreements be fulfilled.

The fact is that we share some positions of the government, and we fight for security. We're not part of the government, as some sectors against the free trade agreement want to say. We're not at all similar. We have our political will to fight for the defence of the national industry to guarantee thousands of jobs that should remain, will remain, in Colombia.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

We'll go back to you, Ed.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I'd finally say, to be clear, that we already do business with Colombia, and it's a point that needs to be reinforced. What we are asking, in terms of putting this free trade deal together, is to ensure that we have a rules-based way of dealing with Colombia so that it's fair to both countries and that we have, at the same time, what is ultimately a very strong labour cooperation and environment agreement. I think those are essential to making this work.

If you have any final comment on why it's important to have a rules-based deal to increase trade and to remove tariffs both ways, I would leave that for your pleasure.

Thank you for your time here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

We will not have time for another round of questioning.

If any of you gentlemen would like to have a brief closing statement, I'd ask you to do that now. We very much appreciate your attendance today and the responses you have provided.

Is there any final word you'd like to leave before we sign off?

[Germán Restrepo]

In closing, I'd like to make some points with respect to the death of a trade unionist. I've been working for 38 years for the Empaques company. Three union leaders have been killed throughout the history of the company. They have been killed for reasons that were totally different and far removed from union work. One was killed because a motorcycle was stolen, one because a car was stolen, and another because of a problem he had in the neighbourhood where he was having a few drinks. Approximately one month ago, in the early hours of the morning on a Friday, an affiliate of ours in the municipality was murdered, and the investigation found he was killed because he stole a chain and a radio.

So in Colombia they're killing some union affiliates, some union leaders, but the majority of them are being killed not because of their union activity but because of the violence we're involved in in Colombia. You are aware of this in your country, and you'll have to cooperate with us to see how we can eradicate this violence that has existed for some time in Colombia.

In another example, a teacher was murdered last year, and we went to the ILO. The ILO said the leader of the teachers federation was associated. An investigation indicated the teacher was killed by a stepson because he had been hitting the mother. This was not mentioned in the complaint. The ILO said a union leader from the textile centre in Bello was killed. This was how it was announced. What did the investigation indicate? The people killed him because he was raping minors.

So all the union members who have died in Colombia did not die because they are trade unionists, but because of the violence in the country.

[Walter Navarro]

As was indicated by Gerardo, I want to thank you for the opportunity you have given us to appear before you as witnesses for the House of Commons of Canada.

To conclude, I'd like to say the free trade agreement should be approved for Colombia, for a very simple reason, this being the fact that there's violence here. That situation will not improve from one day to the next, as the trade unionists at your table said. Some terrain has been won over. In Colombia we have improved the situation of human rights but we're not going to eradicate violence in Colombia from one day to the next. If the free trade agreement is not approved because there's violence here, that would mean that in Colombia we would never have a free trade agreement; there happens to be violence here, and there will be violence for one reason or another.

I think the approval of the free trade agreement is a way of helping us. It's very necessary for our country so we can continue along the path of eradicating violence.

I wanted to leave that as a final point so that you can analyze this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you, Mr. Navarro, Mr. Sánchez, Mr. Cadavid, and Mr. Restrepo. It's been very useful and very helpful to us. It provides a local perspective. As Mr. Holden said, you understand and know your country so well.

Thank you very much for your attendance today and for your willingness to come last Tuesday. I'm sorry that didn't work out.

Again, we very much appreciate you being here today. Muchas gracias.

I have a couple of short technical announcements to make. For the interest of members, there will be two conferences of interest next week. One will be here in the West Block on Monday, beginning at 10 a.m., on international trade matters. It looks like pretty interesting stuff. I think you have a note on that.

There is also a human rights conference being put on by Amnesty International. That begins on Tuesday at 12:55 p.m. We're going to meet next week on Tuesday, so we'll probably adjourn early to allow some of the members to attend that.

On Tuesday we'll have a briefing on Jordan. We were unable to commit witnesses for Tuesday on Colombia discussions, so we'll get started on Jordan. At eleven o'clock on Tuesday we'll start with an hour briefing by departmental officials on the Jordan free trade agreement. Then we'll go to committee for half an hour. I'd like to talk then about where the committee would like to go after we pass Colombia and Jordan.

I have a quick motion:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee conduct a study on the Canada-Jordan Free Trade Agreement.

Could I have a motion to that effect?

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I so move.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

I second the motion.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you. That allows us to start on Tuesday with a discussion of Jordan.

We're adjourned.