Evidence of meeting #5 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was decision.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Dicerni  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Chummer Farina  Director General, Aerospace, Defence and Marine Branch, Department of Industry
Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Carmen DePape

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Welcome to the fifth meeting of this session of the Standing Committee on International Trade.

We're continuing our discussion of Bill C-2, An Act to implement the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the States of the European Free Trade Association (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland), the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Republic of Iceland, the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Kingdom of Norway and the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Swiss Confederation.

Appearing today is the Honourable Tony Clement , the Minister of Industry. With Minister Clement we have the deputy minister, Richard Dicerni. Thank you for coming. We also have the assistant deputy minister, industry sector, David Maloney. And we have the director general, aerospace, defence and marine branch, Chummer Farina.

I appreciate your coming again today. We have a particular section of this bill that is relevant, and a request was made for you to discuss it.

In practice, we have one hour. We'll go to a vote at...I think it will now be 10 o'clock, because we're a little slow starting.

If you could, Mr. Minister, I'd like you to give us a brief opening statement. Generally I think the questions are prepared. We've studied this for about eight months now, so I think most of us are very familiar with the situation. I'll let you open, and then we'll go to questioning.

We'll begin the questioning with seven-minute rounds, and we'll try to keep our questions and answers in each case to seven minutes in the first round.

With that, Mr. Minister, thank you again for coming. I'll let you begin.

9:05 a.m.

Parry Sound—Muskoka Ontario

Conservative

Tony Clement ConservativeMinister of Industry

Thank you, Chair.

It's a pleasure to be here today to outline some of the measures our government is taking to support the Canadian manufacturing industry and, of course, in particular the shipbuilding industry. As the member of Parliament for Parry Sound—Muskoka, I'm used to only dealing with and talking about steamships, so it's a real pleasure to talk about larger vessels and how they are important to our industry here in Canada.

As you know, the Canadian manufacturing industries are facing some significant economic pressure across the border. The current context is challenging for our businesses and our workers, and global economic conditions, as we know, have deteriorated to the point where the IMF is forecasting just a 0.5% world growth for 2009. You may know some of these statistics already, but the IMF expects Canada to outperform other G7 countries, largely because of the measures previously taken by this government and the relatively sound and effective financial system we have in place in Canada.

This is not to say that we're out of the woods—far from it. We know that Canada is not immune to the global economic situation. We also know that the IMF is forecasting a contraction of the Canadian economy for 2009.

Canada's government recognizes the importance of the shipbuilding industry. This industry is commercially viable and promotes the enforcement of government policies in terms of the sovereignty, safety and security of all Canadians.

Recently the government announced supply contracts for shipbuilding materials of an approximate value of $43 billion over the next 30 years. We are aware that the maintenance of the competitive nature of the industry is critical for the country in order to ensure that Canada can ensure the achievement of these projects and be able to derive the maximum benefit from them.

In 2008, the Canadian shipbuilding industry employed about 5,000 people and had revenues of approximately $525 million. Today's levels are far lower than those of the 1980s and 1990s, of course, but the industry has experienced a significant upswing since 2001 whereby employment numbers have grown over 20% during that period.

You probably know this, but the industry is comprised of 13 large yards and 20 smaller yards spread out all over the country. Of these yards, effectively five yards—the Washington Marine Group in B.C.; Seaway Marine in St. Catharines, Ontario; Davie in Lévis, Quebec; Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax, Nova Scotia; and Kiewit in Marystown, Newfoundland—could currently fulfill major federal government procurement requirements.

With regard to our discussion today on the European Free Trade Association agreement and the impact it will have on the shipbuilding industry, I believe it is important to note that for Canada's most sensitive shipbuilding products, which include ferries and offshore supply vessels, tugs and pusher craft, dredgers and salvage ships, and light vessels, there will be a 15-year phase-out of Canada's existing 25% tariff. For less sensitive products, including tankers, fishing vessels, drilling platforms, production platforms, cable ships, and research vessels, the total phase-out period is 10 years. In all cases, however, there will be no reduction in the import tariff for the first three years of the agreement. Moreover, the CEFTA also includes a safeguard mechanism, which offers additional protection to the Canadian shipbuilding industry. If imports from EFTA are found to be causing injury to Canadian shipbuilders within the 10- or 15-year phase-out period, then the tariff rate can revert to the pre-free trade rate of 25% for up to three years.

Canada will not open its government procurement market for the shipbuilding industry within the framework of negotiations of free trade agreements. Federal and provincial governments will always have the right to limit their calls for tender to Canadian shipyards for purchase, rental, repair or retrofits for all types of ships.

Under the provisions of CEFTA, Canada is not obliged to modify its Buy Canada policy for shipbuilding supplies. As you all know, within the framework of the Buy Canada policy, the government has committed to maintaining its acquisition policy for repair and retrofit of ships in Canada, conditional upon of course the necessity of the service and the existence of a competitive market.

Clearly, Canadian negotiators have been sensitive to the importance of shipbuilding. The length of the phase-out periods included for shipbuilding is unprecedented, and these long phase-outs provide Canadian shipbuilders with time to benefit from government measures.

Included in these measures are domestic procurement, the structured financing facility or SFF, accelerated capital cost allowance, export financing by the EDC, and the tax measures for capital investments announced in the last budget.

I want to turn my attention, Chair, if I may, to the first two items.

As I mentioned, the government announced its intention to procure over $43 billion of maritime vessels over the next 30 years. More recently, budget 2009 announced the investment of $175 million on a cash basis for the procurement of new coast guard vessels and for undertaking vessel life extensions and refits for aging vessels. Given our commitment to the Buy Canada policy, these procurements will mean significant opportunities for domestic shipbuilders for many years to come.

As many of you know, the shipbuilding and repair industry is relying on a speedy solution to this issue of federal naval procurement. The continuous challenge with naval procurement has been the cyclical nature of the procurement process. Many of the major shipyards rely on government procurement for revenue, yet project continuity has been lacking. The peak and valley characteristic of the cycle makes Canadian shipyards extremely hesitant to invest in new internal infrastructure projects, as there is no guarantee that the shipyard will have use for the expanded infrastructure after the completion of a project. This diminishes Canada's naval new build capability, and that's an important element of Canada's naval defence strategy.

It's for this reason that when renewing the national shipbuilding policy in 2007, the federal government committed to using government procurement as a policy tool to support the shipbuilding industry once the larger volume of government procurement started to be realized. To improve upon the situation, Industry Canada has been working diligently with our counterparts at DND, the Canadian Coast Guard, and Public Works, along with a variety of outside actors and stakeholders, to ensure that an acceptable and efficient outcome is met. While we recognize that this task is a challenge, we are confident that we will meet an outcome in the near future that will satisfy the industry's need for predictability and the navy's and coast guard's extensive technical requirements, all while taking into consideration the federal government's budgetary constraints.

It's important to mention that a commercially viable shipbuilding industry in Canada must exist to ensure that these federal procurements are realized. To this end, the government announced on June 7, 2007, the renewal of the structured financing facility until March 31, 2011. Through the $50 million SFF, the government has made financing support available to domestic and foreign shipowners while providing interest relief when companies choose a Canadian shipyard for vessel constructions or modernization. Currently, $28.3 million of the original $50 million budget remains available for support.

While our officials continue to have high-level discussions with potential applicants, unfortunately the current global economic situation has had some serious impacts on shipbuilding order books domestically and indeed internationally.

Earlier on, I spoke about procurement policy in Canada and the Structured Financing Facility. These two elements are part of a group of four components of Canadian shipbuilding policy. The other two components are the accelerated capital cost allowance which will allow companies to write off their costs over a four-year period; the final component is the 25% tariff on imports which is imposed on vessels that are built outside Canada, with the exception of countries with whom we currently have trade agreements.

Our shipbuilding policy does not include direct subsidies, but rather is a more comprehensive and, I believe, robust strategy focusing on the long-term viability of the industry via innovation, opportunities, technologies, trade, and investment. It's designed to encourage innovation and growth by focusing on developing the technology and skills related to high value-added work rather than providing new forms of protection. It is a reasonable and balanced approach designed to help the industry resolve the difficulties it faces in a world where, as we know, competition is fierce.

Ultimately, the success of the shipbuilding industry is dependent on new ideas and solutions developed by the industry itself. Given that the shipbuilding and the industrial marine industry is a forward-looking industry with a strong high-technology component, we're confident that the industry, with the support of the Canadian shipbuilding policy, is well positioned to weather the current economic storm and to exploit new export markets in the future.

The continued viability of this industry will lead to downstream economic benefits for other Canadian industries as well. Industries that benefit from a strong shipbuilding industry include the industrial marine and the oil and gas industry.

We know that global trade in the shipbuilding sector is distorted by a variety of measures taken by other governments, including subsidies, border measures, and procurement preferences.

As far as subsidies are concerned, the government will continue to work together with the World Trade Organization in order to plan for new disciplinary sanctions and also to create a more competitive environment for the shipbuilding sector and other Canadian industries. But its action will not be limited to the WTO. For example, the Government of Canada has actively participated in discussions with the OECD on the reintroduction of standard competitive conditions for the world shipbuilding industry.

Moreover the government and the Export Development Corporation of Canada will continue to play an active role in the formulation and development of international disciplinary measures targeting export credits in order to carefully monitor and ensure that exporters around the world will be competing on an equal footing.

I want you to know that our government is committed to undertaking efforts to make Canadian companies more productive and competitive in the global economy. One of the most important ways, of course, is through trade. Trade and investment flows are key drivers of productivity and innovation. We know that, and those are key themes for our government. As such, the government has and continues to negotiate free trade agreements with countries around the world.

Ultimately the result will be the achievement of several key objectives: negotiation of better and more secure access to other markets for Canadian exports through lower tariffs and the elimination of non-tariff barriers; clarification of rules pertaining to the provision of certain funding or enhanced rules for foreign investment; and focusing on specific sectors, given their importance and prominence to the economy.

The EFTA agreement is an example of such an approach. This agreement eliminates tariffs on all industrial products, with the exception of Canada's tariff on imported ships, upon entry into force of the agreement. Canadian sectors that could benefit from tariff elimination include newsprint and wood products, cosmetics, and prefabricated buildings. Chief benefits will be seen in the agricultural sector, which anticipates immediate duty savings of $4.4 million.

Furthermore, as you know, our government has engaged Canadians and industry leaders in broad consultations to discuss how Canada would weather the current economic downturn. Our economic action plan has put forth a broad range of measures to stimulate the economy, protect those hardest hit by global recession, and ensure that Canada exits this economic phase an even stronger country.

I could go on about our plan, but I know time is short. I would just say finally that we are intending to work with the Canadian manufacturing industry, and in particular with the Canadian shipbuilding industry, to ensure that it remains a strong, competitive, and vital part of our economy. We expect that by working together as industry and government we can overcome the current challenges facing us and emerge from this experience stronger and more competitive than ever.

Thank you, Chair.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We will begin this first round of questioning with Mr. Savage, followed by Monsieur Cardin and Mr. Julian. Each will have seven minutes for questions and answers, for the first round at least. The questions can be directed to the minister or any of the witnesses, or answered by any of the witnesses.

We're going to begin with a visitor from Nova Scotia, Mr. Savage.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Chair. I'm delighted to be here to take the place of my Nova Scotian colleague Scott Brison, who is away.

Minister, thank you for coming to the meeting. Thank you for your comments.

You're aware that shipbuilding is an issue for a number of us who represent areas where shipbuilding is an important part of the economic landscape, and for somebody from Nova Scotia, it's about as historic and traditional as it gets. Nova Scotia used to be a world leader in shipbuilding. We still have a number of people in the industry. It's high-quality work. But we are concerned about a number of issues, and one of them is the EFTA deal.

It's not our intention to vote against this. We support free trade in principle. Norway is clearly the country we have an issue with on shipbuilding, but Norway is a country that I look up to immensely because of the way it conducts itself in the world. So I'm not condemning Norway, but I am concerned about shipbuilding.

Being new to the committee, I haven't been part of all of the discussion, but I've followed it. One of the concerns the shipbuilding industry has, apart from the fact that they simply don't like the EFTA agreement because Norway has had a policy of supporting its shipbuilding industry that's been much more generous than the policy supporting the Canadian shipbuilding industry.... That in itself is a problem. But at the very least, we think we need to have a national shipbuilding strategy. Some people might say we have one. I don't think we have one; not many people would say we have one. We need to have a national shipbuilding policy that takes into account things such as a strengthened Buy Canada policy. The whole procurement policy is very important: continuous procurement, direct allocation—these are all things that shipbuilders and shipbuilder unions have talked about for years. I find remarkable the extent to which the workforce in the shipbuilding industry and management in the shipbuilding industry are aligned on a lot of these key issues.

My overarching question is, when are we going to get a serious, robust national shipbuilding strategy in Canada? Is that something you're prepared to lead on as this EFTA deal goes forward?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Thank you for the question.

I'd almost reframe the question: are there ways to improve the shipbuilding policy? We're certainly open to discussion about how to do that.

We have a policy in place right now. It involves the new coast guard vessels procurement, of course, and the SFF, which I've talked about as a way to extend another $50 million into our policy and programs. But it's basically about procurement and about eliminating some of the peaks and valleys over the next 30-year period--having a steady stream of procurement to the domestic industry and working with the industry to make sure those peaks and valleys don't occur, so that they can have some confidence, when they make a capital investment, that it will be put to good use and won't be lying fallow after a few years of usage. Those are the elements of the policy.

I take your point, though, that there are always ways to improve policies. I'm not saying that these are chiselled in stone, by any stretch of the imagination, and we look forward to your collaboration. If there are ways we can make the policy better, we'd certainly look at them.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

One of the issues the shipbuilders have had is this up-and-down cyclical approach to shipbuilding in Canada, and that up-and-down approach seems to have continued recently.

Back in December, the Minister of Defence gave some very strong signals that shipbuilding would be a major part of the stimulus program that was being formed for the budget, which came out in January. In fact, let me read you a couple of headlines. From the Red Deer Advocate, here is a headline from December: “Funding shipbuilding may be major part of stimulus program”. The Chronicle-Herald, from the beautiful community of Dartmouth-Halifax, said, “Shipbuilding may raise economic tide”. And then by February the headlines were these: “Canadian shipbuilders 'left in the doldrums'”; “No shipbuilding stimulus despite Tory promise in '08”; “Industry had been left waiting for plan”. Peter Cairns, the president of the Shipbuilding Association, said they have to shift their focus and just convince the government to move faster on projects it has already announced.

So there was great disappointment that there wasn't more for shipbuilding in the 2009 budget. There was $175 million, which in the scheme of things these days is not an awful lot of money.

I'll ask you a specific question. One issue that has come up a lot on shipbuilding is about combining the structured financing and the ACCA. This committee heard this: “Although the original intent was for the SFF and accelerated CCA to be mutually exclusive, the Committee also heard that Canada's international obligations do not prevent the two programs from being combined, should the federal government wish to do so.”

Is that something you will do for the shipbuilding industry?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Let me just say that obviously you're right. Right now, as I understand the interpretation by Revenue Canada, it is that they are mutually exclusive. So that would require a change in tax policy, which is a little bit outside of my scope. The SFF is there to be used, if it is a preferred option, by a particular applicant. It's not there to solve every issue, by all means, but it is there to be used as an option if it is helpful.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I appreciate that it's not in your realm of expertise. It's not in mine either, but I'd like to see it. I'm asking whether you as industry minister, having these voices from the shipbuilding industry, would be prepared to advocate for combining the SFF and ACCA.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

I've noted your concerns and I'll take them under advisement.

The other point I'd like to make, though, is that—

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Is that a yes, Chair? Did I get a yes?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

The other point I'd like to make is that we're talking about $43 billion in procurement over the next 30 years. That's government policy. It doesn't have to be repeated in the budget; it's government policy. And $43 billion over the next 30 years, if we do it right—it's not going to happen overnight and it's not going to happen automatically—should end the peak-valley, boom-bust kind of approach in the life of the shipbuilders in Canada. That's why we're working with the industry, why we're hearing their concerns, why we have a continued dialogue as we move forward on procurement.

I'm not the procurer; that's Public Works. I'm not the recipient; that's DND. But I am the industry guy, and I want to keep working with the industry to make sure that we can maximize the potential of this massive rebirth of our defence capability in this area.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Mr. Savage.

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Cardin, you have seven minutes.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, gentlemen.

This week—Tuesday, if memory serves me well—we heard from the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters Association as well as the Canadian Council of Chief Executives. Following our discussions and the answers they provided to us, it seemed clear that both organizations supported the principle of equality of opportunity in terms of trade for all industry sectors.

We know very well that Norway has benefited for many years, if not decades, from substantial subsidies for the development of its shipbuilding industry. That was not quite the situation here in Canada. And yet here we are, talking about equal opportunity.

There are mainly two measures being presented to us that concern the shipbuilding industry. I imagine that the Minister of Industry is an integral part of any free trade agreement negotiations, specifically with the objective of giving this industry the opportunity to get off the ground over this long period of time. For the rest, we might have to look a little further. Furthermore, several people were saying, as did Mr. Laurin from the Manufacturers and Exporters of Canada, that certain components should be taken out of the accord that should not necessarily be considered as subsidies.

Other than the two measures you presented today, does the department intend to provide stimulus to the shipbuilding industry over this period? Has it done any analyses that would help it bring this about?

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

As I said, it is very important to have a policy for the shipbuilding industry. We do of course have several programs, but we also have the advantage of having a naval materiel procurement plan for the next 30 years.

It is clear that a free trade agreement is good for Canada in several areas, including agriculture and the manufacturing sector. Industrial products benefit from the elimination of tariffs. It is important to provide protection against anti-free trade activities. As I indicated in my remarks, this kind of situation is possible. If there is a problem within the Free Trade Agreement, we have the possibility of offering that industry protection.

Perhaps the deputy minister would like to add something else.

February 26th, 2009 / 9:30 a.m.

Richard Dicerni Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

The Structured Financing Facility which was renewed in 2007 is intended to facilitate the transition. The other component, as the minister was mentioning, would be the purchases by the coast guard and the Department of Defence. The government hopes that these acquisitions will maintain continuity in employment, once the process to build these ships or to proceed with refits over the coming years has been launched.

We hope that the four components, that is to say the depreciation program, the purchase in Canada program, that is to say Buy Canada, the Structured Financing Facility as well as acquisitions will allow us to provide sustained support for the shipbuilding sector.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

At the beginning of his statement, the minister spoke of $43 billion over 30 years. This financing may, of course, require the immediate support of the project by the shipbuilding industry, but there are no guarantees of that. What is certain is that the current budget contains approximately $175 million. Other measures might have been taken in the past and could perhaps still be taken.

These include, for example, work carried out by various companies over the years, whether it be in the repair or reconstruction of ships; there have been several. Had the government granted credits or refunds to Canadian shipowners—something it could still do—when they transformed or rebuilt approximately 16 ships abroad, it would have drawn their attention. Four or six of these ships might have represented $100 to $150 million in business. The budget talks about $175 million, but refundable tax credits for shipowners might get their interest.

A whole range of measures could be implemented to assist the shipbuilding industry during this transition period. This is what we would expect from the government.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Budget 2009 contained several programs intended to support the manufacturing industry, such as tax reductions, access to financial credit and increased support for innovation. These programs are also important for this industry. The challenge today is to include these measures in the budget in order to support this industry. That is our government's policy.

9:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Richard Dicerni

First, the budget amount that you are referring to is in addition to existing credits. As the minister stated, several credits were already included in previous budgets allocated to the various departments. The $175 million amount is simply an addition.

We must also remember the significant support given to the Export Development Corporation. Recently, this corporation came to the assistance of Davie Shipbuilding in order to provide support for them during a period of transition. The budget also contributed to assisting both banks, the Business Development Bank of Canada and this bank, so that they would have more capital and be able to help different businesses, including those with ties to shipbuilding.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chairman?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

No, I'm sorry, it's eight minutes. Thank you, Monsieur Cardin.

Mr. Julian.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for being before us today.

I particularly enjoyed your reference to Buy Canada. It's the first time I've heard those forbidden words come out of the mouth of a Conservative minister, and hopefully that'll be a habit that other Conservatives will pick up.

Since you're responsible for the relative health of our major industrial sectors, the first question I want to ask you is in terms of job loss figures, the tracking your ministry does on job losses. Can you tell me the number of jobs that have been lost in the softwood sector since October 12, 2006, which is the date of implementation for the softwood sellout?

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

I don't have that figure with me because I'm prepped for shipbuilding, but we can get that figure to you, for sure.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Okay, so you do track them.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

It's called Statistics Canada, yes.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Yes, so you do track job losses. Now, you also make projections about future job losses. My next question would be this. What is the impact analysis on the number of jobs that will be lost in the shipbuilding industry if EFTA goes through without a carve-out for shipbuilding?