International Trade Committee on March 3rd, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

It is 10 o'clock, but I think in fairness we'll try to complete the first round at least.

We'll go to Mr. Cannan.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Since we're only having one round, I'll share my time with my colleagues.

I'd like to welcome our guests back again. I was looking through the minutes, and it was April 2 last year, Mr. McArthur. It has almost been another year. It will be your 74th birthday soon. Welcome back. It's an annual return.

As you mentioned, these are ongoing negotiations. It hasn't happened overnight; it's been close to 10 years of negotiations since the agreement was initially discussed. There has been a lot of to and fro, back and forth, and numerous meetings. I know you've partaken in close to a decade of discussions.

I also share your concerns. We have to pay close attention to industry. Our government is very concerned about the future of this industry--and industry across the country. We're trying to look at opportunities to expand our markets.

This is basically the first free trade agreement Canada has entered into since 2002. And Costa Rica wasn't a large agreement. We need to expand outside the United States. We've seen what happens when we concentrate solely on over 80% of our trade with our friends to the south. But we're looking at other opportunities around the world.

As you alluded to, there's significant investment--$43 billion approximately, over 30 years--for the coast guard and the shipbuilding industry. As my colleague Mr. Cardin mentioned, in the budget there's $175 million for the coast guard and for procurement and other initiatives to help our aging vessels. There is a series of initiatives that our government is working on with the shipbuilding industry. I know it's a concern across the country.

Coming from British Columbia, we have the west coast industry as well, which has been able to continue to be competitive in a global competitive marketplace.

I thank you for sharing your insight and words of wisdom on the agreement and negotiators to date.

I'd also like to ask a question to Mr. Pugh.

Thank you very much for spending time with us this morning as well.

Having been raised on the prairies, I want to ask for your perspective on durum and the opportunities for our agricultural community. My colleague Ted Menzies, who used to be the parliamentary secretary, sat on this committee. He was working with the EFTA agreement at the time. He was in Liechtenstein, and he was commenting that there are some opportunities with this agreement--if we can secure the agreement--to open up opportunities for our agriculture community in other European countries.

Do you see that as a positive initiative, Mr. Pugh?

[Terry Pugh]

Of course, any increase in agricultural exports is always positive. I think my main point is that the benefits from those trade deals have to go to the farmer. When you're talking, for example, about durum wheat, through the collective marketing agency of the Canadian Wheat Board you see more of that return to the farmers' pockets. There are significant markets out there, and the Wheat Board has been working very hard over the years to do that.

Of course we'll benefit from any chance we have to increase that market.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you. I have one other comment.

You mentioned “supply managed”. To clarify the record, supply management isn't compromised.

I can quote from Mr. Plunkett's comments, who referred to the committee. He's the chief negotiator. He said:

I should note that Canadian supply-managed programs are maintained under this EFTA and were exempted.

I want to make sure that the comments of the chief negotiator are clarified, and if there are any other concerns around supply managed, that they be alleviated with his assurance.

At this time I'd like to pass the floor over to my colleague, Mr. Allison.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you.

I want to thank the witnesses once again for being here.

In terms of concern over the last number of years, how long has the shipbuilding industry been in decline? How long has this been going on, Mr. McArthur?

[Andrew McArthur]

It probably started in the mid-1980s, when the government started a program of rationalization. I forget the number of shipyards that were in business at that time. George can answer for the west coast; there were quite a number that were closed on the west coast. You had Collingwood Industries in Ontario, Versatile Vickers in Montreal, MIL in Sorel, Quebec. That really started the decline of the industry.

We used to have a direct subsidy. When that subsidy finished, I think in the early 1980s, if I remember correctly—

[A voice]

1985.

[Andrew McArthur]

—there was a decline in the industry after that. That's when rationalization started. And basically it has continued to this day.

Recently you had Port Weller shipyard in St. Catharines, Ontario. The shipyard basically went out of business. It went into bankruptcy. It's now trying to resurrect itself, and they're trying to get by on repairs.

We're at the point of no return. If there are any more shipyards that close, I don't think you'll have an industry.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

So it's fair to say that the previous government didn't do a whole lot to help with this industry, either, correct?

[George MacPherson]

In fairness, when Brian Tobin was the industry minister he was the only minister we saw who was prepared to actually do something for the industry to try to revitalize it. Prior to that, I would agree with you.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

We appreciate the concern for the industry. We also realize how important it is, as has been mentioned before. My thoughts are about what this government has done to signal that they're concerned and trying to do something.

By all means, it may not be perfect at this stage, but certainly through procurement and trying to deal with our arctic waters, etc., you must be encouraged—and once again I don't want to put words in your mouth, like Mr. Julian—about the direction this government is trying to take to restore some of the shipbuilding industry.

[Andrew McArthur]

Speaking for the industry, we can turn the whole thing around. The industry could have quite a good future. We need to realistically look at the proposal the association has sent to the Prime Minister and get it going.

I've been coming to Ottawa for a long time, and I've found that we need one guy to stand up. We need a champion to drive it through—some minister somewhere, or maybe even the Prime Minister—and say, “I'm going to do this, and goddamn it we're going to get it done and done quick.” You can turn the whole industry around. There's a lot of work out there that the government needs. The coast guard needs it and the navy needs it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Great. Thank you very much, Mr. McArthur, Mr. Allison, and Mr. Cannan.

I'm sorry, that's it for questioning. We are completely out of time.

I want to thank our witness Terry Pugh, the executive secretary of the National Farmers Union, who was with us by teleconference.

[Terry Pugh]

Thank you very much for the invitation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. MacPherson and Mr. McArthur, thank you again for reappearing at the committee and for your testimony today.

[Andrew McArthur]

Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity. It's so important to us. I'll come back any time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

That's apparent. Thank you.

We are going to take a very brief break while the witnesses are bid farewell. We have other witnesses who may be of assistance to us in going through clause-by-clause.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Ladies and gentlemen, we will resume pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, February 5, 2009, Bill C-2, An Act to implement the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the States of the European Free Trade Association (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland), the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Republic of Iceland, the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Kingdom of Norway, and the Agreement on Agriculture between Canada and the Swiss Confederation.

We will proceed with clause-by-clause of that bill. I think a package has been distributed to everyone to review the bill. This will make it easier for us to follow in going through it. When we refer to page numbers, they will be the ones on the package distributed rather than the bill. If everyone follows the package, it will be easier to follow. This has just been passed out. It's called “Committee Stage”. Everyone has it.

Okay, so we are all on the same page.

Mr. Cardin.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Chair, since we have just this moment received the documents that you have listed, I have to say something. I would imagine my colleagues are disappointed to have received these documents just before they are supposed to begin the clause-by-clause study of the bill. It's really a shame.

I've glanced very quickly at all of the proposed amendments, and it appears that virtually all of them were received on February 10, with the exception of one amendment received on the 27th. I would imagine that members would have appreciated receiving these documents earlier and having the time to examine them. I have the feeling that an assumption is being made, namely that had we received them earlier, we would not have examined them anyway. On the contrary, I think we would have examined them. The process might take longer if we were to ask that each item in these documents be explained to us.

As I see it, circulating documents at the very last minute is not standard operating procedure. I merely wanted to point that out. Getting documents at the last minute is unpleasant. We had attempted to contact people to see if they were available, but we did not get a response. Now, we know what that response is. It's disheartening.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Moving right along--Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Following what Mr. Cardin mentioned, these amendments were submitted nearly a month ago. I was unaware that they were not sent to members of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Fine.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

In every committee I've been part of, amendments have been given to members of the committee days before they considered clause-by-clause. We've had discussions over the past two weeks about clause-by-clause coming forward, certainly this week but most probably today, so I think Mr. Cardin's question warrants a response. Why weren't they distributed to committee members?

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

I'll let the clerk respond. I don't deal with those things. It's up to the clerk.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mrs. Carmen DePape]

I was speaking with the legislative clerk, and the practice in other committees has been to sometimes give them out a day or two before or on the day of the meeting.