International Trade Committee on May 4th, 2010

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you.

To Spirits Canada and Pulse Canada, I've been on the trade committee--I am a senior ranking member now--for six years. We've often heard presentations about how bilateral trade agreements are going to open up new markets. But the statistics are actually showing the contrary.

We signed a trade agreement and implemented it with Costa Rica. We were exporting $77-million worth of exports at that time. And now, through 2004, 2007, it's at $73 million. The Canadian exports abroad in Costa Rica, after the signing of the bilateral trade agreement, declined.

The same with Chile; 10 years of decline after implementing the trade agreement.

[An hon. member]

Did you look at the economy?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

In Israel, at the same time....

Our parliamentary secretary doesn't understand what I'm saying. I'll explain it to him later.

The figures show there is an overall decline in exports in every market we have signed a bilateral trade agreement with--a decline in constant dollar export values.

Mr. Keddy is looking at current dollars, and of course it goes up; the inflation rate erodes the purchasing value of that dollar.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

You can't twist numbers.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

But in constant terms, in every single bilateral trade agreement we've signed, we've seen a decline in export value.

So I'd like to hear back from both of you, why this failure? We hear a lot of smoke and mirrors about how these bilateral trade agreements are going to increase Canadian exports, but in every single case they've actually fallen.

What do you think the Canadian government needs to do, aside from the bilateral trade agreements? What are they not doing? I think the issue around Pulse Canada and the lamentable lack of support that this government provides for marketing support and product promotion support is one part of that.

I'd like you to comment on why there's this failure to increase our exports after we sign bilateral trade agreements.

[Murad Al-Katib]

I'd like to make the first comment.

One of the other roles that I didn't describe is that I am chairing the current small and medium enterprise advisory council for the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. With regional representation of 15 SMEs from across Canada, there is, again, absolute unanimous approval of the agenda to advance free trade agreements in a broad-brush stroke.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

With respect, that wasn't my question, though. Aside from bilateral trade agreements, what do you think we need to be doing?

[An hon. member]

You don't want his answer.

[Murad Al-Katib]

I will tell you--I just want to answer one part of your question--that if you went out to Canadian businesses, as we are known as successful exporters in every corner of the globe, and talked about the fact that we failed to capitalize on trade agreements, I think you'd find there are many factors that are affecting those statistics.

I think that we have capitalized on those agreements. In the Colombia sense, I can tell you that if we end up in a position where there's a duty change--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but there has been a decline, a demonstrable decline.

[Murad Al-Katib]

With all due respect, if I could finish my response, I think it would be....

Go ahead.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Well, if what you're saying is that there hasn't been a decline, the statistics very clearly show that this is not the case. So if what you're saying is that the money that is currently supplied--

[Murad Al-Katib]

What has happened with our exports to the U.S. and Mexico after the North American free trade--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I'm talking about bilateral trade agreements, and that's Costa Rica, Chile, Israel, even the EFTA deal. In all cases, they declined.

If you don't have a comment and you'd like to provide it later, I would like to get Spirits Canada to comment.

[Murad Al-Katib]

I'd like to pass it on to Spirits Canada.

[Jan Westcott]

Well, we've been very strong supporters, for decades, of multilateral dealings. The reality is that multilateral dealing, the Doha, is very.... It's not going anywhere. So we can't stand still while other countries are out there negotiating individual agreements and have Canada excluded. They're not all perfect, I grant you that, but we have to do it.

I can't speak for the whole trade community; I represent the spirits industry. Where we have seen opportunities for ourselves we have gone in support of those agreements. If we don't see opportunity, we're not going to spend our time and our resources.

Our view is that these are opportunities. We can take advantage of them. It takes time to build your market presence in countries. It's not--

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

What's missing, then? I mean, why would it take 10 years for us to get back to the same level in Chile that we were at before we implemented the agreement? Why would it take that long?

Why, in Costa Rica, now seven, eight years after implementation, are we actually lower in exports than we were before the trade agreement was implemented?

[Jan Westcott]

I think one of the key things that's taking place is that for a long time Canadian business wasn't looking at those opportunities. I think a lot of things have changed. I think the economy, particularly, is causing Canadian business to look much more aggressively at those. I think you'll see a different performance as we go forward.

[A voice]

I would agree with that comment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

Mr. Keddy.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, please keep an eye on my time. I promised to share my time with Mr. Holder, so give me three minutes and then you can cut me off, not a problem.

I have a couple of very short statements, gentlemen, that need to be made. The first one is that Mr. Westcott, from the Spirits group, is talking about the Doha Round. The reality--and it needs to go on the record--is that the Doha Round has stumbled to a stop and we're not moving it. We're trying to move it. We're doing everything we possibly can in our multilateral negotiations to move it, but while it's stopped we will negotiate and continue to negotiate bilateral agreements. It only makes sense.

I certainly don't agree with anything that the NDP has said about trade going down. Every statistic I've ever read shows that trade actually goes up.

My second statement is that far be it from me to be Mr. Brison's advocate--he can do that himself--but certainly we on the government side welcome the amendment and support it. It has enabled us to get this moving, where we were stopped before.

Very quickly, to Mr. Al-Katib.... Oh, he's not here.

Okay. Well, we have Mr. Potts here.

We're trading now at a 15% deficit. We're paying 15¢ on every dollar that we make, and we're still trading with Colombia. Especially in the lentils and in the pulses, where we're supplying a healthy, nutritious, cheaper food than is available in Colombia now, how can that be bad for human rights? Just give a very quick answer; I have one more quick question.

[Carl Potts]

The biggest issue for us is having that level playing field, facing the same tariffs and import duties as all our competitors. That is the key reason why we're supporting this particular agreement.

With respect to access to food, not only in Colombia but in a lot of the markets we sell to, our products are consumed by the poorest section of the population. Trade deals that reduce import duties that lower costs and the cost of food for people in those countries is one of the key reasons why importers, as Mr. Al-Katib quoted earlier, are supportive of these agreements.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Lemelin, I listened very closely to what you were saying and yet you've got to help me out, because part of what you were saying I can't rationalize.

You quoted that the union had no involvement--and you were certainly not encouraging involvement--in internal Colombian affairs, but you're making statements about internal Colombian affairs. Certainly...and in no way, shape, or form misrepresent what I'm saying to think that we're supporting any type of government or sponsored or paramilitary attack against union members or union memberships. So let's be clear there.

However, you've singled out the paramilitary groups, and the government has admitted that the paramilitary groups are a problem. They certainly say that. They're the first people to say it. But you totally ignored Mr. Brison's question on the narco-traffic, and the socialists in FARC in the jungle, who have an armed insurrection, an armed insurrection against the Colombian government.

So how can you single one out as displacing people when both the socialists FARC and the narco-traffickers--or all three, with the paramilitaries--are guilty of that? How can you single one out?

[Denis Lemelin]

I didn't do that. Look at our paper that we presented about solidarity. We met with every group. We met with workers, we met with aboriginals, we met with the government, we met with human rights, we met with the Polo, we met with the groups--

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

And none of them had a problem with FARC in the jungle?