Evidence of meeting #20 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clause.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Matthew Kronby  Director General, Trade Law Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Pierre P. Bouchard  Director, Bilateral and Regional Labour Affairs, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

9:30 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Collective bargaining rights do not exist when you put your life in jeopardy by pushing for a collective agreement. If you try to push for better health and safety standards or a collective agreement, and you pay for that activity with your life, then free and independent collective bargaining does not exist. That is the point that many labour unions—

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Brison has a point of order.

9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I would appreciate an opinion from our witnesses, our experts on Colombia, on whether or not Colombians have the right to collective bargaining, whether or not there are labour laws that are respected in Colombia, and whether or not the labour agreement that Canada has signed with Colombia is robust. I think, Mr. Julian, it would be important to hear from our witnesses.

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I'm not a judge, and likely never will be, but I would like to hear the answer to this. I think it's pertinent.

9:30 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

It's not a point of order.

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Larry Miller

No, it's not, but because you're being repetitive and our points of order or non-points of order are repetitive, in the interest of moving forward, I'm going to ask the witnesses. I want to hear the answers.

Mr. Kronby? Mr. Bouchard?

9:30 p.m.

Director, Bilateral and Regional Labour Affairs, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Pierre P. Bouchard

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For the first question, yes, the right of collective bargaining is clearly laid out in Colombian law and, on top of that, Colombia has ratified the relevant ILO conventions with regard to that.

In Colombia, are labour rights respected? Colombia is a developing country. It is making its best effort to respect labour rights. We believe the government is making its best effort. We are supporting them and, through the labour agreement, they've certainly committed to a very high standard against which they can be evaluated.

With regard to the third question on how this labour agreement compares to other labour provisions negotiated in the context of free trade agreements previously by Canada, and by other countries with Colombia, this is, without any doubt, the most comprehensive labour agreement that has been negotiated in the world right now.

I'm going to make a distinction here that I think even some witnesses who appeared before this committee would not question. When I talk about comprehensive, I talk about the level of obligation. On the level of obligation, nobody disputes that in the commitments that were made on the level of obligation, we went beyond what was negotiated by any other country.

We now are starting informally to see the text of what was negotiated by the European Union with Colombia. The Canadian agreement goes much further than that. It even surpasses what was negotiated with the United States.

There is some debate as to the robustness of the agreement. We think it's very robust--just as robust--but there is an argument out there in civil society over the availability of trade sanctions to ensure compliance. We have mechanisms that ensure compliance by forcing government to pay penalties and resolve the issue, which we think in many cases actually would make the agreement more robust, but we acknowledge the debate out there on this particular point.

9:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. That does correct your statement--

9:35 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

It certainly does not, Mr. Chair. It certainly does not. I will go further, Mr. Chair. Now, you've been amenable, so I allowed you to do that little circus act--

9:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Scott, you have the floor--

9:35 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Mr. Chair, the--

9:35 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Chair, every single trade union--

9:35 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Mr. Chair, the honourable. member should not--

9:35 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

--that has come before this committee from Canada has said very, very clearly that this was a matter of--

9:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Order.

9:35 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Mr. Chair, the honourable member has called the testimony of a senior public servant a circus act.

9:35 p.m.

An hon. member

It's unbelievable.

9:35 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

If that's the New Democrats' way of treating senior public servants when they appear before committee, I, for one, don't want to have any part of it. These are senior public servants who bring to committee their expertise and their passion for Canada and for our role in the world. They should not be referred to as a circus act.

9:35 p.m.

An hon. member

That's right.

9:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I agree.

Mr. Julian.

9:35 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Chair, the point I'm making—and I hope Mr. Brison absorbs this because certainly the labour movement and labour representatives will be contacting him over the next few days—is to say that when every single labour movement that comes before this committee says very, very clearly that this issue of collective bargaining rights is fundamental, and that collective bargaining does not exist in Colombia when you have the ability, as paramilitaries have regularly, to kill those who are fighting for labour rights, that is a fundamental problem.

So we can throw around any types of terms that we want--

9:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Point of order, Mr. Keddy.

June 1st, 2010 / 9:35 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

--there is no validity from a single labour representative--

9:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Julian, I have a point of order. Respect that. You know--

9:35 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Mr. Chair, with respect, we have witnesses here who are being abused atrociously. We have members who can't interject and get a chance to debate. We're repetitive on the issue. We have an amendment before us. With respect, I suggest we vote on it.