International Trade Committee on June 1st, 2010

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Okay.

Mr. Guimond.

[Claude Guimond, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I, too, am stunned at hearing these kinds of comments. As I understand it, if we don't want any union activists to be killed, all we have to do is ensure that no one else is going to be unionized in Colombia. It absolutely bowls me over to hear comments like that, Mr. Chairman.

I believe Mr. Julian's amendment, which would appear on line 19 of the French version of the clause we are considering, would be a fabulous gift for the people of Colombia. If we could add to the current wording, which says “protect, enhance and enforce basic workers' rights”, by including the right to collective bargaining, what harm could it possibly do to us? It would be a wonderful gift for them.

Personally, I am a farmer in Quebec, I have been a union activist all my life, and I am happy to have had that right. We have built some great things in Quebec and Canada thanks to unions.

Why not offer this to the Colombian people? I really don't understand these kinds of comments, Mr. Chairman. Why not accept this amendment? I don't understand.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Mr. Keddy, on a point of order.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Mr. Chair, we are so far off the amendment and off the subject. There are two points I'd like to make fairly quickly.

The first is in defence of Mr. Trost's statement. It was an expression about the violence that's inherent in Colombian society, and the way you change the violence that's inherent in Colombian society is to allow people to find jobs and opportunity and pick themselves up.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, on the issue of the labour agreement, I would have thought that certainly the socialist party would have read it--I'm not sure they have--and I would have thought the Bloc might have even taken the time to read the labour agreement as well. Certainly, collective bargaining is a key component in it.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Laforest.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I simply wanted to say to Mr. Julian that I fully support his amendment with respect to the right to collective bargaining for workers.

When a society in which workers and everyone else see their rights infringed, as is the case in Colombia… When you see all the social progress that occurred in Canada and Quebec as a result of wide-spread unionization and workers being given the right, through legislation in Canada, to collective bargaining, well, there is no doubt that society has improved. And it's the same--

[The Active Chair, Mr. Larry Miller]

Mr. Laforest--

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I don't understand why you are cutting me off.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Mr. Laforest, you're basically repeating what Mr. Guimond said, and I think your point is taken. This is not a debate about unions; it's a debate about the amendment.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

No, I am not repeating what Mr. Guimond said. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, but I am going to raise a point of order. I'm sorry, but I am not at all saying what Mr. Guimond said. He said what he had to say. Mr. Guimond--

Yes, it's a point of order.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Get back to the point or I'm going to rule you out of order.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Guimond said he had been a unionized worker and that he had experienced certain things as a result. What I am saying is that society as a whole, in Quebec and Canada, progressed from the moment when we enshrined the right to collective bargaining and the rights of workers.

What Mr. Julian is proposing in his amendment is to provide the same thing to Colombian workers. I do not see how anyone could oppose this kind of proposal, when we know that a lot of people who appeared before us said that their rights are being infringed--

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Mr. Laforest, you're away on a tangent and I--

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

It is absolutely on the topic of the amendment, Mr. Chairman.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

I appreciate your passion, but let's get back to the amendment that's out there. We're not talking about unions in Canada.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I am talking about the amendment. I am making a comparison, Mr. Chairman. I'm trying to demonstrate why an amendment such as this is important. I am referring to Canadian unions because of the experience we have had here, obviously. I did not go to Colombia; I was not part of the Committee.

I think we should use our own experience in Canada and Quebec and give others an opportunity to benefit from it; we should be using a free trade agreement to promote progress in that society as well. We don't even have the courage to do that, and yet it says here: “protect, enhance and enforce basic workers' rights”. There is one important way of doing that, and that is to say that they have the right to collective bargaining. But you don't want to do that. You prefer to remain silent, even though this is extremely important.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Very good.

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Laforest was completely in order, as you know, Mr. Chair. This is the fundamental heart of this issue. We have in Colombia what has been described as the worst situation for organized labour for free and collective bargaining on the entire planet. We have seen the killings on a regular and ongoing basis of unionized workers, labour representatives. As a result of all of this, what we have seen is a driving down of collective bargaining. More trade unionists are killed in Colombia than anywhere else on earth, Mr. Chair.

I'm sure all members of the committee, if they don't understand that at least at this point, they certainly haven't been listening to witnesses, the few witnesses we've had, before this committee, or a certain two parties around this table, invoked closure and tried to shut down all of the trade unionists and labour representatives who wanted to come forward.

The right to collective bargaining is pretty fundamental. Mr. Laforest and Monsieur Guimond have spoken very eloquently about that issue. And this is really the heart of whether or not we have members around this table who understand the dynamics in Colombia and understand that one of the fundamental problems is that the right to collective bargaining does not exist.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Do you have a point of order, Mr. Cannis?

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

We sit around this committee wanting to move forward and do the country's business, but not to get insulted. When the witnesses came, when the president came, when other people came, on both sides, I think I understood what they told us. Mr. Julian is entitled to cite his statistics. Whether they are true or false, I'm not going to say. But we saw statistics that show that these crimes—the kidnappings, the murders—had been continuously declining over the years. For Mr. Julian to make that statement, I think, is inaccurate and it impugns the fairness of this committee.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Brison, you had a point of order.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

No, I would like to ask our witnesses, Mr. Bouchard or Ms. Bugailiskis, for their views on two questions.

First, how robust is the Colombia labour rights agreement compared with others Canada has signed? Second, do Colombians have the right to collective bargaining? I'm asking these questions of our witnesses.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Order, please.

Mr. Brison, I'd like to hear, too. But I want to be fair here, and Mr. Julian had the floor. If he'd give you time to get the answer, that would be fine.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

I know Mr. Brison is feeling sensitive because his amendment is not working too well, but the reality is that there are no collective bargaining rights when you risk your life by pushing for them.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Order! I'm going to ask once: if any members want to go and have a meeting, please leave the table. Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.