International Trade Committee on Oct. 18th, 2010

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Tim, I hear you, and I empathize with what you're saying in terms of human trafficking. It is a concern globally. Knowing that, then, and the world knowing that, why isn't the world as a whole acting on this collectively? Wouldn't you think that would be the best approach rather than just having Canada saying that we're going to be the only ones doing it?

[Tim Waters]

I think there is support in the U.K. There is support in Germany. There is support in Australia for what we're doing. Look, there's--

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

We support it in Canada.

[Tim Waters]

Sorry?

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

We support it in Canada. We're going to put in firm guidelines--at least, I'm going to make sure there are guidelines in this agreement to make sure that it addresses these concerns that you and Charles and whoever bring forward. It's a good start.

[Tim Waters]

I think that's a wonderful first step, yes.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

That's great.

This is my last question. In terms of the forest industry and forest products, I agree, Mr. Casey, with what you're saying. We have to diversify. There's a piece of the pie out there that Canada deserves a share of.

I don't come from an area that produces lumber or softwood lumber or pulp and paper, but I do have industries that are affected. I am very pro on making sure that Canada does what it needs to within the right guidelines, Tim and Charles, so that we get our share of the pie. I suggest that if there is anything we can do to help you expand your industry, so that we don't just focus on one major client....

I don't know if there is anything you want to add, but that's my view on this.

[Andrew Casey]

I appreciate the support. The only nuance is that rather than deserve it, we've already warranted it; we're the most successful national forest products exporting nation in the world. We export more than any other country in the world. We're already in all those other marketplaces.

In any new marketplace we can open up, where we just need a level playing field to compete, where our major competitors are receiving either zero tariff rates or rates significantly lower than ours, we need to knock those down to put us on the same footing.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

That's great.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you, Mr. Casey.

Thank you, Mr. Cannis.

We're moving on to Monsieur Laforest.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Mr. Waters, you said earlier that you supported the free-trade agreement between the United States and Jordan at the time but that you came to regret it afterwards. You thought Jordanian workers would be the ones benefiting from the agreement. And that was not the case. It was foreign workers who were practically imported, as you say, getting the work. You noted an increase in trade within Jordan. Raw materials were being processed, numerous products were being manufactured, but not by Jordanians. Were Jordanians completely excluded from the higher workload or production? Was it only foreign workers who were affected?

You made it seem as though foreign workers were the only ones whose workload increased in order to meet production requirements in the wake of the new agreement. Did Jordanians not have the opportunity to work more, as well?

[Tim Waters]

Merci.

I want to be clear. We didn't support the trade deal just to help Jordanian workers; we supported the trade deal to try to create a level playing field among all countries, which is the way we think trade should be. Trade should be level, with the rules applying the same in one country as in another, to eliminate the chance of exploitation of people, exploitation of the environment, or whatever the case is. Just to be clear, we were trying to help Jordanian workers, but only because we're trying to level the playing field and make it fair.

The law in Jordan calls for these factories to have 10% of the workforce as Jordanians. I never saw that, not once. You see a handful of Jordanians here and there, always with different work hours, always with different work rules, but there are very, very few. For instance, I was in a factory that produced clothing for Walmart and Kmart and some other retailers as well. There were at least 1,200 workers in there, almost exclusively Filipina young women--and they look for young women--and Chinese and Bangladeshi young women. I saw no Jordanians. It's very, very easy to see.

The answer is that there's a small percentage there, but not what the law calls for, and nothing like we would ever have thought would be the case for this trade deal of the U.S. government with Jordan.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Unless I am mistaken, trade between Jordan and the United States increased, but you noted that it did not translate into more work for Jordanians. Yet that was the case for other workers. That is basically what you are telling us.

Do you know how many more workers percentage-wise were needed to meet the stronger demand resulting from the free-trade agreement, Mr. Kernaghan?

[Charles Kernaghan]

In 2008, 86% of the exports from Jordan to the United States were garments. In 2009 it dropped a little bit, to 83%. The trade with the United States is almost entirely garments. Those garments are made by 30,000 foreign guest workers, so it hasn't spurred much production in any other part of Jordan.

[Tim Waters]

Let me respond further. I think I see what your question is.

You have factories owned by Chinese and Indians and others outside the country of Jordan. You have the work being performed by Bangladeshis and Chinese and Filipinos, who are trafficked in, and who sometimes have to spend many thousands of dollars; whole villages get together to send one young person. Then promises aren't kept, and passports are taken.

So in many cases, the factories are owned by Indians and Chinese, they're staffed by Bangladeshis, Chinese, Filipinos, Sri Lankans, and Nepalese, and China's the winner on the fabric side, so when it comes to what the deal really did for Jordan, you have to begin to ask.... Although that wasn't our fight to begin with: I think it's--

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Casey, you said in your presentation that the Forest Products Association of Canada had prepared a four-part action plan and that you needed to seek out new markets. Have you also considered pursuing new products? Has enough research been done to identify new products? You can seek out new markets for old products, but you can also identify new markets for new products.

[Andrew Casey]

Yes, you are right. We also need to identify new products. FPInnovations is doing some good work for the industry. It is working on research in order to develop new products and is seeking out new markets for those new products.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

If the federal government had given you the same level of assistance as it gave the automobile industry—I am referring to the $10 billion the government handed out last year—I would think the research would be much further along.

[Andrew Casey]

The federal government gives FPInnovations enough money.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Does it get enough?

[Andrew Casey]

The government has supported it in the past.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Would you not like to receive more?

[Andrew Casey]

Of course, always.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you, Monsieur Laforest, and thanks for the plug.

We'll go now to the NDP and Mr. Allen for seven minutes.

Thank you.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Waters, I say this in a spirit of cooperation as an auto worker. I know you're a steelworker, so we'll try not to bare knuckles with one another as we normally would do in the outside world. You and Mr. Kernaghan have painted a very grim picture of what we see in a textile factory in Jordan, with some recent evidence. I read through the other report entitled “Dirty Clothes”, which is actually an earlier report, and you're talking about a more recent one today.

But if I heard you correctly, Mr. Waters, you talked about the inside of the U.S.-Jordan free trade deal. You talked about the labour code, about the labour pieces being internal in the document. Is that correct?