Evidence of meeting #5 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steve Ross  General Manager, Cherubini Group
Guy Caron  National Representative, Special Projects, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada
Steven Shrybman  International Trade and Public Interest Lawyer, Council of Canadians
Michael Buda  Director, Policy and Research, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

We'll begin. Sorry we're a few minutes late getting started.

We are continuing our discussion of Canada-U.S. trade relations, with particular reference to procurement and recent procurement agreements. We have had witnesses for a couple of days on this matter.

Today we have a witness from the Cherubini Group, Steve Ross, the general manager. From the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada we have Guy Caron, national representative, special projects. From the Council of Canadians we have Steven Shrybman, international trade and public interest lawyer. From the Federation of Canadian Municipalities we have Michael Buda, and assisting him is policy analyst Adam Thompson.

We have discussed our format. We're going to begin with ten-minute statements.

Mr. Ross, are you going to give a statement as well, or just answer questions?

3:40 p.m.

Steve Ross General Manager, Cherubini Group

I can give a statement if you like.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

All right.

Please try to be brief. I'll look to somewhat less than ten minutes each for opening statements. There's no need to fill up all that time. Then we'll proceed to questions from the committee.

Mr. Ross, you can begin, and we'll move down the line from there.

3:40 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

Thank you.

I'm the general manager for a steel company in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. We build bridges and buildings. The company has been in business for 40-odd years. Back in the mid-1990s we started doing work in the U.S., primarily in the New England, New York, New Jersey area. With the Canadian dollar at 63¢ back in those days, it was quite easy to get work and we became quite successful working down there. Within a few short years, 50% to 70% of our business was in the U.S., building major buildings, high-rise buildings, major bridges, and things of that nature. Of our total sales per year for the last, say, ten years, we were doing $50 million to $60 million in sales, and probably $30 million to $40 million was U.S. sales.

As the U.S. dollar migrated back to par, that certainly changed the ball game, because being on the east coast, one of our disadvantages is location. We are a little off the beaten track, so we have to move goods back and forth to the market. As the dollar approached par it became even more difficult. We still managed to secure work and kept reasonably busy. In 2008, with the U.S. economy taking the major turn that it took, the competitiveness of U.S. manufacturers, the status of the dollar, and the “Buy America” situation kind of put an end to our U.S. work, at least for the short term.

“Buy America” related to us in the manufacturing business, where the federal government was putting money into state projects. Traditionally we could do state projects because they weren't federally funded, since a lot of the state projects, the bridges and buildings that we were building, if they were state funded might have been funded through tolls or other means. Once the Buy America and stimulus package came in, a lot more money went from federal projects to state projects, and the conditions were under the Buy America clause, in that any funding was now under the Buy America clause, even some of the state projects we were doing, so essentially we were shut out of that market for the past year and a half.

With their stimulus package, I know they spent a bunch of money in the past year and a half, but a lot of the work they've been doing down there is really the shovel-ready stuff, which is really paving, painting, and things like that. It's not the major projects. With the big projects, the kind of stuff we do, it can take a year or two to design these things, so the work that's attractive to us is really yet to come. I think there's still another $20 billion worth of work they plan on doing in the next couple of years as part of the stimulus package. With the changes to the Buy America clause, I think that will certainly be a positive thing for us as we look down the road.

As it stands right now, the U.S. economy, from what we see as far as the markets we're working into, is still really not in very good shape. Our American competitors are very competitive. They're working and bidding projects just to survive. So it's a very competitive marketplace out there, at least until the economy starts to improve on their side. Also, the Canadian dollar being close to par is really not helping us much. So we've been kind of buoying our situation with more domestic work in Canada and being a little more aggressive in Canada. We're still holding our own and doing okay, but we're certainly looking forward to the day that the U.S. economy starts to percolate and improve, and hopefully we'll get back to doing more work down there.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you.

We'll continue with the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada, with the national representative, special projects, Guy Caron.

3:40 p.m.

Guy Caron National Representative, Special Projects, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair, members of the Standing Committee on International Trade.

My name is Guy Caron and I am the national representative for Special Projects at the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada, CEP. CEP represents 150,000 members concentrated in the forestry, energy and telecommunications sectors. I thank you for the opportunity to appear before your committee.

I would like to start by stating that, as we see it, history is repeating itself. On the altar of so-called “free trade”, Canada gives a lot and receives little. It is a story we have witnessed during the first FTA negotiations, when, to gain a deal the U.S. were not that interested in, we agreed to give away access to our energy and its control, accepted to eliminate our 25-year security reserve, and agreed to a proportional sharing clause that even Mexico rejected at the time. These concessions were provided in order to obtain, or try to obtain, privileged and guaranteed access to U.S. markets, which we did not even get, as was shown later in the softwood lumber issue.

To draw from a more recent example, let us recall the Canada-U.S. softwood lumber agreement, where Canada gave up on a mountain of favourable jurisprudence and even agreed to subsidize this agreement to the tune of $1 billion. Part of this $1 billion, half of it, in fact, was used to subsidize Canada's opponents, Canada's accusers, the Coalition For Fair Lumber Imports, in exchange for a system of quotas and export taxes that turned out to be unfavourable. In this case, we contend that Canada gave a lot to get little. Let me substantiate this statement.

Ultimately, what did Canada gain from the agreement? It received three things.

First, Canadian firms gained the faint possibility of winning bids of no more than 2% of the $275 billion that the U.S. injected into their economy under their stimulus package.

Second, Canadian firms will receive limited national treatment in 37 U.S. states that have signed onto the WTO Agreement on Government Procurement. It is limited because this latter access is mitigated by the numerous exemptions, to which I will come back.

Third, Canada gained a “fast-track consultation process”, whereby the U.S. government will alert the Canadian government to Buy American preferences in impending U.S. federal legislation. However, there is no guarantee that binding and satisfactory settlements can come from these fast-track provisions, and this consultation process might very well simply be a mere notification.

What did Canada fail to gain from the deal?

In terms of interim and permanent arrangements, one of the main exemptions from the U.S. commitments I was referring to is the 23% of U.S. federal procurement dollars set aside for small businesses and minority-owned businesses. Similar set-asides exist at the state level.

Second, in the interim arrangement, U.S. municipal government procurement is still not covered by the agreement, while Canada provides access to American bidders in 50 Canadian cities.

Third, in terms of interim and permanent arrangements, Canadian suppliers still will not be allowed to supply construction-grade steel, vehicles, coal or printing services to the United States.

Fourth, contracts and tenders worth less than $7.8 million are still not exempted from the Buy American clause.

Fifth, in terms of permanent arrangements, the Agreement also leaves inaccessible the government procurement in the 13 states that have made no commitments at the WTO level. No provincial or territorial government outside of Nunavut will be spared.

Sixth, as to permanent arrangements, which will survive the tax and economic stimulus issue, we must remember that the initial position of the Canadian government was that any deal should protect Canada against Buy American rules in future U.S. legislation. This was not obtained, and we know full well that several pending U.S. bills, including the $US 100 billion “Jobs for Main Street” legislation, contain Buy American preferences. This is important because, if a state or local government project is even partially funded by federal grants, Buy America conditions must be met.

What did Canada have to give away to get what it got? As to interim arrangements, U.S. firms will have the opportunity to bid on infrastructure and construction procurement by Canadian provincial and municipal governments for the next year and a half, until September 2011.

These are estimated at over $25 billion. For Canadians, the deadline for the projects has already passed and we can only hope to have a few subcontracts spilling over from money already spent in the American economic recovery initiatives.

Provinces and territories did not make commitments under the WTO GPA or NAFTA Chapter 10 mainly because of concerns regarding the previously mentioned exemptions. Even though we failed to end these exemptions, provinces and territories are now expected to make commitments under WTO GPA.

Third, as to permanent arrangements, procurement is one of the few economic tools for local development left to Canadian provincial governments in this age of globalization. So it is probably the most important issue for your constituents. This tool will be taken away when they agree to a permanent commitment under the WTO GPA. It will be more and more difficult, especially for the provinces, to stimulate their economy with economic and fiscal measures, insofar as outside companies can benefit from this potential stimulus and, as a result, the role of the government will be diminished.

The question of local procurement will also be eliminated because, according to the rules of the WTO, the only condition or the only factor that must influence the decision is the lowest cost.

It is clear that Canada had the rough end of the bargain. The U.S. Department of Trade certainly has no doubt that it won. On the World Trade Online website, an American publication, we can read that U.S. trade representative Ron Kirk said that the value to U.S. firms from the provinces and territories signing on to the GPA will be tens of billions of dollars. By contrast, the extent of the benefits for Canada under the tentative agreement is limited, according to a U.S. trade official.

It is clear that Canada gave too much for too little of the access it sought. This is unfortunately a pattern we have witnessed from recent years, when we gave up our control on our energy resources for the FTA. We also gave up our agricultural subsidies in the unfulfilled hope that the U.S. and Europe would do the same. That was not the case. We gave up all the jurisprudence that stated that we were right, in addition to a billion dollars, to get limited access to the U.S. softwood lumber market. In the last few weeks, we stated that we would be weakening our foreign ownership restrictions on telecommunications when the U.S. understands how critical a backbone the telecommunications architecture is for their country. Section 310 of the Communications Act imposes foreign ownership restrictions that are quite strict on foreign ownership in telecommunications. But it seems that the direction we are headed in is to relax these restrictions.

In conclusion, I would like to remind you that the thousands of workers we represent in the forestry and energy sectors understand the importance of international trade, since we depend on it. We do believe that Canada and the U.S. must be welcoming markets to each other. But we also believe that this must be done on a level playing field. A level playing field, this agreement does not provide. While the U.S. commits to no more than a crack in the door and still allows their 37 states to use government procurement as a legitimate tool of local development, we are blowing our doors open by putting shackles on our own provincial and territorial governments. Trade negotiations constitute a game of give-and-take. For such negotiations to be successful, there must be as much giving as taking from both sides. It is clear that, by this count, once again, Canada lost.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Mr. Caron.

Now we'll hear from the Council of Canadians, Steven Shrybman, international trade and public interest lawyer.

3:50 p.m.

Steven Shrybman International Trade and Public Interest Lawyer, Council of Canadians

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, for giving me the opportunity to speak to you today.

I want to commend you for holding these hearings. These are extremely important international agreements, in terms of their impact on public policy and regulatory options available to Canadian governments. They're too poorly understood by Canadians, and there are too few opportunities for them to learn about the implications of the agreements that federal trade officials are keen to negotiate with the United States, Europe, Colombia, and other nations.

I'm appearing here today on behalf of the Council of Canadians. I'm a member of its board of directors. I'm a partner in the law firm Sack Goldblatt Mitchell. We have offices in Toronto and Ottawa. I have a public interest law practice that includes a healthy dose of international trade law.

The council is the largest Canadian citizens organization. It has tens of thousands of members. Many of them participate in the council's activities through community-based chapters, of which there are several dozen across the country.

Canada's international obligations, whether environmental, human rights, or trade, have always been a priority for the council. They've asked me to come here today to represent their views on this procurement agreement with the United States, and I do so as a volunteer.

You've heard, I believe--from my brief perusal of the transcripts of the proceedings before this committee--from other witnesses about how one-sided this agreement with the United States is, in that most of the benefits flow to U.S. companies seeking access to Canadian procurement markets. I believe that's an entirely fair characterization, and particularly true with respect to the temporary agreement rules that require provincial governments and municipalities to comply with international procurement rules for the very first time. I'm going to restrict my remarks today to that agreement on the temporary rules as they apply to municipalities, in part because of my fellow panel member here who represents the Federation of Canadian Municipalities.

You have a copy of my remarks. I'll simply paraphrase them to keep within my allotted time. You will see that in my view not only is this arrangement one-sided, it's egregiously one-sided. I hope that your assessment of the agreement will reveal and underscore the pressing need for much greater transparency during the process of international trade negotiations, if our trade agreements are actually to serve rather than betray the interests of Canadians.

So let me delve into some of the details of this temporary agreement. It's set out in part B of the main framework agreement and refers to appendix C, which itself has two parts. We learn when we look at appendix C that in terms of Canada's commitment under this agreement, construction projects of a value greater than $8.5 million are subject to rules of the regime if the government entities or governments that are engaged in the procurement are listed under part B of that appendix. There are lots of government entities that are listed. The commitments that the provinces have made vary from one province to another. British Columbia, for example, has committed all government entities and all municipalities in the province.

So you have an agreement that for the first time imposes some very significant constraints and resource demands on municipal governments that now have to inform themselves about an international trade agreement and comply with it. This includes providing recourse to those who have a complaint that Canada hasn't lived up to its commitments under this agreement, including an obligation to respond to litigation that the putative failure may provoke.

What's fundamentally important for people to understand about the agreement is that it's not about simply opening your market so that companies from other parts of the world can bid, which is certainly something that happens often in Canada now, and has for years, it includes a ban on something called offsets, which is a requirement, as you know, that as a part of your bid you are to source, to some extent, goods and materials and labour locally. It's not in a discriminatory manner; it's not as if we're saying if you're a U.S. company you have to do this. We may say that as a condition of bidding for a construction contract in our community, whether you're a Canadian company from down the road, from another province, or a European company, or an American company, you still have to source certain goods locally; you have to consider contracts with local environmental design services firms, for example, if it's green procurement. It's that type of proscription that we regard as particularly problematic. These are non-discriminatory rules that would favour local economies and that are precluded by this agreement.

What's particularly concerning about the agreement we negotiated with the United States is that it applies to Canadian municipalities but doesn't apply to U.S. municipalities. It's entirely asymmetrical in terms of the nature of the obligations that our municipalities have in relation to those of their U.S. counterparts. Many U.S. municipalities and state governments maintain the very types of local preferences that are precluded by this agreement, and the U.S. has not undertaken to remove them. The imbalance is even greater when one considers the fact that U.S. preferences at a local level may be maintained under this agreement but must be removed in Canada.

Apparently my submissions were only submitted in English, so you don't have copies of them. They haven't been distributed to you, so let me read, or at least paraphrase, a couple of the examples that I give in terms of Oregon procurement rules, which require that in public procurement preference be given to goods and services that are manufactured or produced in this state if price, fitness, availability, and quality are otherwise equal. I give another example from Alaska, which requires that a 5% preference be given to local bidders and bidders who include the use of local products in their bids.

Those rules are still permitted under this regime. The only thing the federal government in the U.S. has traded with us is an obligation to remove, as a condition of funding under certain federal programs and only certain federal programs, the requirement that U.S. states allow a preference for steel and iron and manufactured products that are made or produced in the United States. The United States has not undertaken to insist that states and local governments remove precisely those same preferences even on the projects that are funded under those federal programs. The United States has made a very limited commitment. When you compare the obligations of Canadian governments and U.S. government, they're entirely lopsided.

I'm going to wrap up by recounting a conversation that I had with a senior trade official recently who quoted one of the negotiators of this agreement working for the federal government as having said “any agreement is better than no agreement”. I take those remarks to indicate that Canada's agenda and bilateral negotiations with the U.S. reflected a parochial mandate, a parochial political mandate, not one that had the interests of Canadians or the Canadian economy at its root.

It is frankly inconceivable that such an egregiously one-sided agreement as this agreement with the United States could have resulted had Canadian negotiators been instructed to strike a fair bargain that served Canadian interests, failing which they would walk from the negotiations.

We are also very concerned that these same officials, responding to similar political direction, will do as poorly in serving Canadian interests in free trade negotiations with the European Union as they have in bilateral procurement negotiations with the United States.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to address you.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you.

Now, from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities we have Michael Buda.

4 p.m.

Michael Buda Director, Policy and Research, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for inviting us here to speak today on this issue. I'm going to try to keep my remarks to five or six minutes, because I know you'll be eager to move on to questions.

We are certainly pleased to be here to present the municipal perspective on this issue. I want to emphasize that our analysis of this deal and the comments I am going to be providing today really are limited to the potential implications and impacts of this agreement on municipal procurement and operations, not so much the impacts and implications of this agreement on the Canadian economy as a whole, on society, and the rest. It's certainly not the mandate of municipal governments to pass judgment on international trade agreements on those grounds. But it certainly is our members' interest to ensure that, should a federal government decide to sign a trade deal, the provisions of those deals respect municipal jurisdiction and expertise and seek to minimize cost and unintended consequences.

I would note that our president, Mayor Basil Stewart of Summerside, asked me to share with you his greetings and his regret that he could not be here to speak to you today.

As quick background, FCM has as you know been the national voice of municipal governments since 1901, and we represent over 1,800 municipal governments from coast to coast to coast, from the largest to the smallest. They include just over 90% of the population of Canada.

To take us back to the spring of 2009, Buy America became a national political priority when the town of Halton Hills, a small town just north of Toronto, grabbed international headlines with a resolution on this issue that it brought to FCM's annual conference in Whistler, in June 2009.

Until then, our view was that the Government of Canada really wasn't paying enough attention to this issue, or the attention it deserved. That resolution, as you'll recall, was supported by mayors and councillors from across the country, from across the political spectrum, and it called for action on both sides of the border. That was our focus at the time. Our members exposed the Buy America restrictions on U.S. stimulus funding that were hurting communities and the economy, reeling from the global recession. We think that resolution and the debate it set off, both nationally and internationally, set the stage for the negotiated solution we're here to discuss.

Last month we welcomed news that the U.S. administration and the Government of Canada have reached an agreement that we understand will remove Buy America's trade restrictions and that appears to allow Canadian-based companies to compete more fairly for federally funded stimulus projects and other federally funded projects in the United States.

As I said at the beginning, we're not really here to share much analysis on that side of the deal, because we're certainly not experts, as Mr. Shrybman and others are, on this deal's impact on reciprocal access to the U.S. market or the impacts of this agreement on Canadian industry.

What we want to share with you today are the recommendations we made to the Government of Canada last summer for crafting an efficient and effective trade deal from the municipal perspective. We did that by drawing on municipal experiences with the British Columbia–Alberta trade, investment, and labour mobility agreement, the TILMA agreement. It provided valuable lessons on crafting a good deal for businesses and consumers, but in particular a deal that sought to minimize disruptions and additional costs for municipal procurement and operations.

I would note here that TILMA, which is a new internal trade agreement between those two provinces, really was for the first time a trade agreement that sought to involve and include municipal procurement in the deal itself. Our members very seriously looked at the lessons we learned there and sought to apply them here. I have to say that it was with some surprise that, when we were speaking with DFAIT officials who were involved in Buy America even as late as last spring, we learned that TILMA was actually unknown to them, because of course it's not an international trade issue. But I think it's an important agreement for this committee to understand and perhaps look at later in your study.

Anyway, we certainly wanted to ensure that these lessons were applied to the Buy America negotiations. So in June of 2009 we sent a letter to then International Trade Minister Stockwell Day, and in that letter we set out six principles for the government to apply to this agreement or any future trade deal in order to minimize any unintended consequences and avoidable costs for municipal governments. These six principles are as follows.

First, there need to be reasonable procurement thresholds in any agreement. Inappropriately high or broad procurement thresholds may force municipalities to tender projects when tendering is really neither practical, financially justified, nor perhaps in the public interest. Mr. Shrybman outlined some important areas, and I will get to some more of those in a second.

Any trade deal that is going to ensure that municipal procurement policies are free-trade-compliant is going to create new costs, and these require specialized expertise to meet. The administration of these new rules needs to be streamlined. In particular, the design of these rules, in order that they be as streamlined as possible, needs to be developed in close cooperation with municipal procurement practitioners.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Excuse me, Michael. Our translators are having a little difficulty keeping up. Could you slow down just a touch? We'll give you another 30 seconds.

4:10 p.m.

Director, Policy and Research, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Michael Buda

Oh, I'm sorry; I apologize.

The third principle is one of progressive enforcement. Enforcement of the provisions of any deal should be progressive, starting with non-financial penalties and moving up to perhaps financial penalties. Municipalities are not necessarily going to have in-house experts on international trade agreements. It is important that municipalities not be penalized for inadvertent non-compliance.

The fourth principle, which we shared with Minister Day, was that there needs to be provision for Canadian content for strategic industries or sensitive projects. This is an area Mr. Shrybman spoke to, and we certainly agree with him very significantly here. A trade deal must recognize strategic and public interest considerations before barring all preferential treatment based on country of origin. This could include industries of strategic significance to a particular region, such as transit—for instance, the Government of Ontario sought to exempt transit from this deal, which they did—or projects where considerations of quality, or public benefit, environmental protection, or business ethics mean that a local government may want to implement minimum Canadian content levels. This needs to be allowed within reason.

The fifth principle concerned dispute resolution. The dispute resolution process in NAFTA may require a more careful review of the municipal role in that process, so that municipalities can defend their procurement policies and bylaws as an order of government, rather than just as another stakeholder.

Finally, the sixth principle is that consultation and communication really need to occur during negotiations to ensure that the resulting agreement responds to municipal concerns. This is another area where we certainly agree with Mr. Shrybman's comment around the need for greater transparency. We understand the need for some confidentiality around negotiations; nevertheless, provinces were fully engaged, and obviously we respect their jurisdiction in this area. This speaks more to ensuring that municipal practitioners who are experts in municipal procurement are adequately consulted, mainly just to derive benefit from their expertise.

Drawing on these six principles and using the publicly available information about the agreement, we have advised our members that so far, this deal looks like good news for municipalities. Having said that, as I said, it's “so far”: there are many details to work out, and we and many of our members are still completing our analysis and looking for new details to emerge. In particular, the deal's procurement thresholds in our view are quite high, as several witnesses have mentioned, at $8.8 million, and they apply only to construction-related projects. Many of our members are commenting that they are already tendering projects of this size and higher and that most tendering is open to companies of any country of origin.

In addition, and importantly when we are speaking about this, provinces and territories have negotiated exemptions for certain sizes and types of municipalities—again, as others have commented, it depends on the province—and also for certain project classes and industries. Again, these are both key principles of ours.

As I said, there are still unanswered questions for our members regarding the administrative enforcement provisions and dispute resolution processes. These details are extremely important to us. Details certainly matter in this case. However, before committee of our national board of directors last month, Minister Van Loan committed to working with FCM to ensure that there is greater municipal input and engagement as the agreement process moves forward. This is a commitment we welcome, particularly because we don't feel that this type of consultation occurred in the lead-up to this agreement in principle. We certainly welcome this move as we go forward.

Those are my remarks. My colleague and I will be pleased to answer any questions you have.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you.

We will begin our line of questioning. There are seven minutes for questions and answers, so if the question gets a little long we'll just have to make the answers a little shorter—or vice versa, which is never the problem with Mr. Brison.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to each of you for appearing before us today and for your interventions.

First of all, Mr. Ross, Cherubini is a great company and a great employer and a good corporate citizen in Nova Scotia. We're delighted to have you here today.

I have a couple of questions. First, this agreement was based on the WTO agreement on government procurement, and there are significant carve-outs. Mr. Shrybman was referring to some of them. In the notes to annex 2 of that agreement, it specifically says that construction-grade steel, for instance, is excluded from the Buy American deal. It also says that it “does not apply to restrictions attached to federal funds for mass transit and highway projects”, which would include, for instance, bridges.

If the Buy American exemptions in the recent agreement do not apply to mass transit, to highway projects, to bridges, to construction-grade steel, or to contracts of less than $8.8 million, would that limit your access to U.S. business, Mr. Ross?

4:15 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

Certainly it would limit us to some extent, but a lot of these projects, the majority of the projects we're involved with, are certainly worth more than $8 million. It's the total value of the project, and you can't....

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

No, it's individual contracts.

4:15 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

It is the contract itself.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Yes.

4:15 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

But the subcontractors.... It's the total value of the project.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I think it's actually the individual contract.

4:15 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

I think the subtrade work, though, is part of the main contract.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

What about the construction-grade steel?

4:15 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

The construction-grade steel is really for federally funded building projects, which we don't do a lot of anyway. The majority of the work we do is state bridges and university work with the more conventional heavy structural steel. The state works that were federally funded were projects, I believe, that we traditionally were doing but that we now couldn't do because of the federal funding.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

What about bridges, for instance?

4:15 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

It would certainly have some effect, but the bridges we do are in the $10 million plus range.