Evidence of meeting #5 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steve Ross  General Manager, Cherubini Group
Guy Caron  National Representative, Special Projects, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada
Steven Shrybman  International Trade and Public Interest Lawyer, Council of Canadians
Michael Buda  Director, Policy and Research, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

March 23rd, 2010 / 4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

I'm going to share some of my time with Mr. Cannan, so I just have a couple of questions for you, Mr. Ross.

I'd appreciate your talking a bit more about your experience. I know Mr. Brison started to talk about it. Given the size of your company, did this Buy American provision affect it, or were you able to get around it because of the size of your company? That's the first question.

Secondly, on what we've been able to access or negotiate now, is that going to change anything, based on what you build, where you go, and how you do it down in the States?

4:35 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

The whole thing started probably from the iron and steel side of the Buy American clause, where things really hit a focal point. It was probably a year and a half ago, or almost two years now, when the Buy American clause came in. We were hit with a perfect storm of things at that time, which was the Canadian dollar rising, the U.S. economy in the downside, and then the Buy American. I would say most of the steel fabricators east of Toronto probably dabbled in the U.S. market, and a lot of the Quebec steel fabrication business was built on a U.S. market. So it was very important, I think, with the Buy American clause, as it related to the steel and iron side of things, that all these projects that had been traditionally open to us were now not open. Combining all three factors together, which was, again, the U.S. dollar and the economy and the Buy American, it just led a major downturn in the steel market for us here in Canada, because, by and large, I think we're primarily exporters of steel, as opposed to importers of steel.

That's the first question. Your second question was related to...?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON

Based on what's been negotiated now to circumvent that, how do you see that affecting your business?

4:35 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

We've circumvented what's been happening in the past year and a half just by more domestic work. We are trying to get more competitive, and that's a means thing that we as a company have to do, to start to get more lean and cut costs and try to find advantages to being more competitive.

When it comes to what we're doing in the U.S., at least for the next year, we don't see a lot happening, even with the change to the Buy American, simply because the type of work that we do is not out there yet on the street. We don't expect a lot to happen for at least the next six months to a year. We're in a holding pattern. Sales have gone from 60% to 70% of sales to 3% to 5% of sales. We don't expect that to change a whole lot for the next bit, so we're facing a holding pattern in the steel market. We do have hope that with this Buy American, where they've changed the rules, there will be more opportunity for us, particularly in the markets we're working in.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON

Thank you very much.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Mr. Cannan.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for coming today and giving a good cross-section of perspectives on this.

We've heard from various organizations already: from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, who fully endorsed this; the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters.... The forest industry, as you mentioned, is a member of your union. They are supportive. It's good to hear, from my nine years in local government, about the importance of working with local government. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities.... I know Michael Chong, from Halton Hills, worked with the mayor there. And up to Whistler, to your resolution.... So I commend FCM for their initiative.

I know President Stewart had indicated that “Canadians are fighting hard to recover from the recession, but they need to be on a level playing field with their neighbours south of the border. Today's announcement gives them hope.” That's where we talked about hope, jobs, and opportunities. I know that was also from the fellow from the business in Halton Hills, as well as the mayor, Rick Bonnette, who said, “Today isn't just about a trade deal, it's about people. It's about protecting Canadian workers, families, businesses and communities.”

Mr. Buda, I just wonder, from FCM's perspective, all levels of government working together is really important. How do you see this agreement bridging into the future? As you mentioned, Minister Van Loan had some discussions. Do you see this as sort of a stepping-off point from there?

4:40 p.m.

Director, Policy and Research, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Michael Buda

Yes, absolutely. Although there has long been, at an officials level, a joint working group of DFAIT, FCM, and municipal practitioners, Minister Van Loan's commitments earlier this month to our board of directors was precedent-setting. We obviously have to figure out how to make it happen, but the commitment is very welcome.

So yes, I do think it provides a path forward to ensure that what happened through the negotiations in this agreement in principle doesn't necessarily happen again, that we're going to have to go back and fix things.

We learned that lesson in TILMA. It's much easier to engage the experts in municipal procurement up front, rather than having to identify problems at the end and then scramble to fix them. It's much more time-consuming and increases uncertainty.

So we do appreciate that direction, absolutely, and we definitely appreciate the commitment of the minister.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Mr. Ross, just to clarify, in moving forward with this agreement now, does this give you some certainty in the bid proposal?

4:40 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

Yes, it does. As we move forward, it's going to take time for these projects to hit the ground, but there are quite a number of projects. So we understand that the door will open for these projects, to return to the kind of work we were doing before.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Okay.

From the forest industry perspective, what was the biggest benefit of this agreement?

4:40 p.m.

National Representative, Special Projects, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada

Guy Caron

I personally can speak from the forestry perspective, because I'm speaking on behalf of the workers themselves.

So we don't see a direct link, or that direct a link, with the forest industry, except as an ancillary industry, but we've seen so many exemptions coming out of the states. Even in terms of the 37 states that agreed to the World Trade Organization agreement on government procurement, there are so many exemptions coming out of these states, either carve-outs or exemptions, that it might, in the end, not have that much of an impact compared to what will actually be given in local procurement.

Many of these forestry companies are in small communities, and they can actually provide what's needed either locally or provincially. As I mentioned, the fact that eventually we'll put shackles on those provinces and municipalities—more specifically, provinces—will be problematic for sure.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Mr. Cannis, you have five minutes for questions and answers this time. Perhaps the answers can be kept a little tighter.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, sir.

Welcome to our panel.

In our most recent meeting, we had other representatives. One was Mr. Grenier. He too said, almost verbatim, that it was a bad deal, that the government sent them there to do a deal at any cost.

We did use the argument—I know I brought the argument forward—about using our energy resources as leverage, and so on, and we will always use them. But sometimes we neglect or we forget about the logistics of how we move our energy products and our energy resources to the U.S. and how that plays into why we can't or we can. Maybe I'd ask the committee to sometimes think about that when we're huffing and puffing about wanting to deal with our cousins to the south.

Mr. Ross, you said earlier that it was the Canadian dollar that affected your business, that it was a downturn in the economy, etc. Not too long ago there was another downturn in the economy overall, and the rhetoric coming out of the United States of America was to not buy any imported cars, to forget the Japanese cars, and so on, and buy strictly American. It was not too long ago, actually, if you will recall. We know that it had a political overtone to it because of the elections, etc., and then it faded away. We're getting that kind of messaging now as well with the buy American proposal.

Hopefully the economy will start to turn around. Economics 101 has taught us that we're going to go through peaks and valleys, and we are hopeful that at some point in time this economy globally will turn itself around. Once that turnaround occurs in a steady healthy way, do you feel that this will be forgotten? If the dollar is where it is today, will that still have an impact, or will you be making adjustments between now and then to help you be competitive, as you say?

4:45 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

I've been in the steel business for 30 years, and we've seen difficult times—in 1982, in the 1990s, and in early 2000. It is a cyclic thing we're involved in here, and sometimes forces are applied differently, because we have so many forces acting against us now with, let's say, the dollar.

Back about two and a half years ago, just before this major recession that we're in, the dollar was up around $1.05 or $1.06 and we were still doing contracts in the U.S. simply because we were competitive and the market was there. The economy was still in pretty good shape.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

What made you competitive, if I may ask?

4:45 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

What was it at that time? We just have an efficient operation. We have a good workforce. I think our expectations for profit are probably lower than the Americans' are. We were happy with maybe 2% or 3% or 4% profit on the job, whereas I know a lot of American fabricators, and they expect more for their input. When it comes down to survival of a business, you have to do what you have to do to keep your people working and keep the operations going. Right now, at least in our business in the United States, steel fabricators are really in survival mode, and they probably will be for the next year or year and a half. That's why we're just saying it's not really worthwhile to go chasing a lot of work in the U.S. when--

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

I have one minute. I have to put this question out.

We know how governments, both south of us and our own, have put billions of dollars into our auto industry. Do you think it's fair for Canadian procurement to buy vehicles from outside Canada that deliver our post office goods when they can be produced here? Just a simple yes or no.

4:45 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

Is that a personal question?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

It's a business question. It's a logical question, and I'm seeking a logical answer.

4:45 p.m.

General Manager, Cherubini Group

Steve Ross

Personally, I have three vehicles that were made in Japan, although they were assembled in Canada.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you.

Are there any other comments on that?

4:45 p.m.

National Representative, Special Projects, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada

Guy Caron

It doesn't make sense to me, because our local procurement in the future will actually allow access to American vehicles and eliminate local preference for Canadians. In the U.S., vehicles will be excluded at the state level, so that doesn't make sense.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you.

That is five minutes.

Mr. Trost.