Evidence of meeting #12 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nafta.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mathias Hartpence  Director, International Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Milos Barutciski  Partner and Co-Chair, International Trade and Investment Practice, Bennett Jones, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Richard Phillips  Executive Director, Grain Growers of Canada
Jim Gowland  Past-President, Canadian Soybean Council, Grain Growers of Canada
Robert Blackburn  Senior Vice-President, SNC-Lavalin International Inc.
Scott Sinclair  Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I would like to call the meeting to order.

I want to thank the witnesses for coming forward.

We have with us today, on a continued study of the European Union and Canada CETA negotiations, for the Grain Growers of Canada, Richard Phillips, the executive director, as well as Jim Gowland, past president of the Canadian Soybean Council. Also, for the Canadian Chamber of Commerce we have Mathias Hartpence and Milos Barutciski.

We want to thank you for being here.

We would open the floor up to the chamber first. I believe Mr. Hartpence is the first presenter.

11 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Chair, I have a motion on the table. I would like to move that motion at this time.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Okay. We will distribute the motion quickly. I'm sorry for this, but nonsense does happen from time to time.

Let's go.

11 a.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Mr. Chair, may I suggest that in consideration of the witnesses we defer the debate of the motion and leave some time at the end.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Is that okay with the mover?

11 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

No, it's not. I wish it was, in a way. The government has a tendency to drive the committee in camera when the matter should be debated in public. Then it has the tendency to not allow how whoever voted to be public. So as the opposition we have no choice.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Mr. Easter, have you moved your motion?

11 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Chair, I'm moving that the international trade committee invite the Minister of International Trade and officials to brief the committee on Tuesday, November 22, 2011, or no later than Thursday, November 24, 2011, about the Trans-Pacific Partnership talks and Canada's efforts to be accepted as a participant in these negotiations.

I see this motion as rather urgent. The discussions lately on the Trans-Pacific Partnership are raising concerns by some industries.

While I support our being a part of those discussions, I'm concerned that on one day the Minister of International Trade said there was really no reason to be in the discussions, and then 24 hours later the Prime Minister said there was—this after President Obama seemed to be pressing Canada to be a part of the TPP discussions. Definitely, supply management had to be on the table.

Mr. Chair, as you know, because you and I attended the same meeting on CETA the other day, the Europeans have made it clear that there will be no deal unless there are some concessions on dairy. The minister continues to claim that on both the tariffs and import access it's zero-zero, but we know the Europeans have made it clear that there had to be some concessions on dairy and poultry.

So we really need to know from the minister and officials why they're going into these discussions on the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Are they actually giving up on some of our industries before they even enter the negotiations just to sit at the table and have a discussion? I think we need some clarity from the government on this issue.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Mr. Keddy.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Brian had his hand up.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Go ahead, Brian.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Go ahead, and I'll wrap up.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Chair, I'm going to be quick so that we don't interfere with the witnesses coming forward.

They support the motion because the government's position has changed publicly. I think it will be an interesting opportunity to have the minister describe the reason for that change in more than just a sound bite, which is all we have right now, or in the House of Commons questioning.

There's an opportunity here to have that discussion, so I'll be supporting the motion. I'll leave it at that. I won't get into the details beyond what's been described, because we have witnesses here and we want to make sure that they get their time.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Fair enough.

Mr. Keddy, very quickly.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

I'm going to wrap this up, Mr. Chairman. With respect to our witnesses, I don't think this is going to take a lot of discussion, but I will speak on a couple of points made in the motion.

First, I was at the same meeting Mr. Easter was at, at the French embassy. There were no concessions made on dairy and the European Union. As a matter of fact, the more the opposition talk about this, the more harmful I believe it is to the supply-managed industry.

You can read Peter O'Neil's article in the paper this morning on supply management.

We continue to have no support for supply management coming from the official opposition and from the Liberal Party of Canada. They continue to ask questions about it, which continues to fuel the media about this debate.

Our position has been clear on the Trans-Pacific Partnership; the scoping finally came out on the 12th. It's an important venue for Canada. We're a Pacific Rim country. We should be part of any aggressive free trade agreement that goes on there.

For the first time we saw the real give and take in the parameters of the agreement. We realize that we can meet the conditions of the agreement, and probably exceed them, and that includes protection of supply management.

So let's vote on this and move on.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Okay, let's put it to a vote.

(Motion negatived)

Mr. Hartpence, the floor is yours.

11:05 a.m.

Mathias Hartpence Director, International Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Mathias Hartpence. I am a director of international policy at the Canadian Chamber of Commerce. I am joined by Milos Barutciski, a partner specializing in trade and competition law at Bennett Jones, who also serves as co-chair of the international affairs committee of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce.

I wanted to thank this committee for inviting us to take part in your consultations on the Canada-EU negotiations.

The Canadian Chamber represents nearly 200,000 businesses of all sectors, sizes, and regions of Canada, everything from mom-and-pop shops to the largest enterprises that power the Canadian economy. With an eclectic stakeholder base such as that, it may come as a surprise to some that we are able to come up with a consensus position and a unified position on the CETA, yet we are.

Canadian businesses in the resources, agrifood, services, and manufacturing sectors have been working hard to supplement their trade and investment with the United States, where their competiveness has been increasingly challenged over the past decade, by accessing opportunities in other markets. Official trade statistics corroborate this.

The 2008 financial and subsequent real economic crises, which dampened U.S. private demand, have made Canadian companies' ability to secure real, level-playing-field market access in other jurisdictions all the more pressing.

In view of that, we have pleaded for a successful wrap-up of the Doha Round negotiations in order to dismantle tariff barriers and other obstacles to Canadian exporters.

Unfortunately, the Doha Round has likely come to an end as a global trade agreement. At the same time as the Doha process, the last decade, the last five years in particular, has witnessed a global proliferation of preferential trade agreements negotiated by WTO members on a bilateral and regional basis.

This has made it imperative for Canada to pursue solid trade and investment agreements of its own with key partners. Without them, Canadian companies would risk losing market share abroad to competitors benefiting from preferential access. But more than that, by pursuing high-quality trade and investment agreements, Canada can not only enhance real market access for its goods and services exporters and investors operating abroad, but it can also help consolidate high-standard norms for level and open commerce among nations, the very norms upon which Canadian businesses depend.

Thank you. I will turn it over to Milos.

11:10 a.m.

Milos Barutciski Partner and Co-Chair, International Trade and Investment Practice, Bennett Jones, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen.

As Mathias said, I chair the international trade and investment practice at Bennett Jones international law firm, and I co-chair the international affairs committee of the chamber.

From working as the international affairs chair for ten years and as a trade council negotiator in various capacities for 25 years, advising businesses and governments, I think the CETA negotiation clearly aims to be the most far-reaching, high-standard trade negotiation Canada has undertaken, including NAFTA. I was involved in the NAFTA negotiations in my brief stint in government at the time, and what we're looking at with CETA arguably surpasses NAFTA in ambition and in its profound impact for Canada in a very positive sense.

Despite Europe's current economic woes, the fact remains that Europe is still the world's largest economy. It has 500 million people, and many parts of Europe are wealthier than we are. It's one of the wealthiest economies in the world. They will not stop eating, driving cars, using the products we make, and consuming the services we provide through their coming years of austerity and various other measures they will have to go through.

European governments at all levels will also not stop purchasing goods and services. The European procurement market is the largest in the world, and the European capital markets also provide one of the largest pools of capital in the world. They are very significant investors in this country and important to our economy in both directions--inbound and outbound.

A robust trade agreement with Europe would make Canada the only country in the world with robust trade agreements with the largest and the second-largest economies in the world--Europe and the United States. I'm not the first to say that if Canada and the EU, as mature, sound, and well-governed economies, can't complete a high-quality agreement, both sides' credibility will be challenged in trade negotiations going forward. We have so much in common with Europe. If we can't come to agreement on some of these issues, how on earth can we hope to come to agreement with 150-plus countries of the WTO, the TPP, or any number of potential negotiating partners, some of which have very different perspectives, economies, and cultural backdrops than we have or share with Europe?

There are, of course, sensitivities in any negotiation, and this is no exception. Some industries will need transition periods to cover and adapt to a new agreement. We've been through this before. We went through it with NAFTA. In NAFTA there were some difficulties, but there were a surprising number of successes and unanticipated successes. I'll mention a couple: the office furniture industry, and the men's suit industry. Nobody expected that those two sectors in Canada would blossom the way they did after free trade with the United States. Everybody expected they would go the way of the dodo. In fact, both industries ramped up to such an extent that they started provoking protectionist sentiments on the other side of the border in the U.S.

So let's not discount our ability to compete from the outset. Canadian business is sound and we compete all over the world. We're dependent to a certain extent today on one economy disproportionately, but that has changed in the past years because of the challenges Mathias raised.

A good trade agreement with the European Union that provides better access to the European market by levelling tariff and non-tariff barriers is essential for the Canadian economy, business and Canadian businesses.

Canadian businesses face technical standards and barriers to trade in Europe, sanitary and phytosanitary measures, limits on the movement of professionals and other barriers related to the various regulatory approaches between Canada and the European Union.

The elimination of tariff and non-tariff barriers is essential to a good balanced agreement that will enable our Canadian exporters of manufactured and food products, raw materials and services to take greater advantage of the trade opportunities that abound in Europe.

In our opinion, regulatory cooperation is also an important factor in these negotiations.

Regulatory cooperation isn't only a federal European Union matter. Regulations are essential and an important part of government, but they apply at multiple levels and they impose a cost, as you all know. They are essential. Businesses have to adapt to them. When you are talking about trade across 11 provinces and three territories, and having to deal with the multiplicity of regulations, think about dealing with trade with a community that has 27 member states and countless sub-federal entities.

Again, regulation is essential for the public good in a whole host of areas. What we are talking about, and what the aim of the regulatory cooperation part of this agreement should be, is to make sure that regulations aren't adopted either by this government, by provincial governments, by European governments or the European Union without thinking about their impact on trade.

Quite often regulations are adapted in a narrow way--“Oh, we're going to fix this safety concern. Oh, we're going to fix that stakeholder concern.” And a good-faith effort is made to do that. That's fine. But an important element, and I think it's one thing the negotiators are trying to include here, is that while we are thinking of the solution to the issue that raises the need for regulation at the outset, let's also think about how it will apply and how we can make sure it doesn't create inordinate burdens on our trade.

We're very pleased to hear from the progress of negotiations that the CETA appears to be prepared to incorporate robust services and investment components. I understand the European Union has agreed to use a negative list in both areas, which is certainly a fundamental shift from the Europeans. It's nothing new to us. Again, it's important, because by using that negative list approach you can say our objective is to liberalize trade across a wide range of areas. If you have any issues about specific sectors, let's talk about them and articulate where the exceptions might be sector by sector, rather than the other way around. Nothing will be liberalized unless we say specifically that we'll lower barriers here, we'll lower tariffs there, and so on.

What a negative list approach does is set a high ambition level from the outset, and allows each side to say they have sensitivities here and there, so let's talk about those. But the ambition level and the ultimate impact is a high-standard agreement.

It's also no secret that government procurement is an important objective in negotiations on the European side. It has been raised a few times in the hearings. I've been reading through the transcripts. Let's not forget that government procurement is also important to our suppliers. Government is a massive market. The procurement market in the United States and Europe is the largest in the world. There are massive opportunities, not only on the goods side, but also very significantly for Canadian business on the services side. We hope that an ultimate deal will address that market in an effective way, both at the union-wide and at the national and sub-national level across the member states of the European Union.

Another important issue is rules of origin. Rules of origin are probably the driest and most technical aspect of trade negotiations. These are the highly detailed rules that vary product by product and that allow you to determine whether this glass or this microphone and speaker set, or whatever, made from components that come from all over the world but perhaps assembled in Canada--or may be from components in Canada with inputs from elsewhere, however it's done.... Those are the rules that say this item or that item is Canadian for the purposes of the trade agreements, and ultimately benefit from, eventually, a zero tariff.

As a trade lawyer, this issue might get me excited occasionally. I don't stay up at nights over it, but it's on the low end of emotion in my world. They are fundamental, and are fundamental in this agreement, especially when we look at industries like auto, when we have an integrated economy with the United States. We have trade agreements with other jurisdictions. We don't only trade with other jurisdictions; we make things with other jurisdictions. It's important that what we make doesn't get excluded from the benefits of free trade.

Mr. Chairman, I'll now pass it over to Mr. Hartpence, who will make some concluding remarks.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

We're very tight on time.

11:20 a.m.

Director, International Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Mathias Hartpence

I'll conclude quickly with one last aspect that's extremely important in these negotiations, which is IP. Ensuring high standards of IP protection for Canadian companies is important in Canada, as it is in other jurisdictions, and certainly in the European Union. We've always seen it as being an opportunity, a platform to reach those high standards with the European Union on IP protection. We are pleased that Canada is moving to strengthen its protection with, for example, the copyright bill that will significantly enhance the protection of IP that Canadian companies need to innovate and to grow.

It's important also not to forget the protection of patents. That is important to the life sciences sector, for example. High standards of patent protection allow for investment and entice investment to come into this country to let these knowledge-based industries grow and knowledge-based jobs to multiply in our country.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much for that presentation.

We'll now move to the Grain Growers of Canada, and we will start with Mr. Phillips.

11:20 a.m.

Richard Phillips Executive Director, Grain Growers of Canada

Thank you.

We've timed our presentation and we'll be well under ten minutes, hopefully.

The Grain Growers of Canada is an association of 13 canola, corn, wheat, barley, oats, peas, lentil, rye, and triticale commodity associations, as well as regional organizations like the B.C. Grain Producers and the Atlantic Grains Council.

We are an organization of progressive farm leaders who are looking for solutions. In fact we will put this on the record here today: we do not believe the government owes farmers a living, but we do believe it owes us a policy environment where we can make a living.

Access to markets like the EU is a policy area where government has a role to play. Individual farmers or farm groups don't have the power or authority to negotiate tariff lines or foreign policy. For that we need you, and that is why we are pleased to be here today.

The Grain Growers of Canada has been involved in these negotiations from the start, meeting with EU members of Parliament, meeting with EU country missions in Brussels, and meeting with the European Commission and individual embassies here in Ottawa. I believe we have met with every country at least once, and some as many as five or six times.

Why do we spend so much time and so many resources, you might ask? Canada has been blessed with an abundance of arable land, clean water, infrastructure like road and rail, and well-educated farmers capable of producing, storing, and shipping large quantities of grains, oilseeds, and pulse crops. Canada's agrifood sectors are very dependent on trade, and grain farmers even more.

It is not just the raw products like wheat or canola, which is what people think of when we say “export”. It is also our value-added products that create jobs here in Canada: processed peas and lentils, canola oil and canola meal, malt for beer, processed food, identity preserved soybeans—and in fact over one-quarter of Canada's agricultural exports to the EU are soybeans—Canadian pork, and Canadian beef. They are the best markets we have for the feed barley, feed wheat, and corn we grow on our farms. When they export, we win.

Here are some quick statistics to make our point. We export about $40 billion a year in agriculture: one-half of our beef, two-thirds of our pork, three-quarters of our wheat, and 85% of our canola.

Outside of the WTO and NAFTA, this is the greatest trade opportunity we have seen in decades. The EU has 500 million people. Their tastes are similar to ours, and they have an appreciation for the high level of quality that can be made in Canada. It is a market in which we have a lot of room to grow and it is a market that—despite the recent news on Greece—has cash to pay for quality.

Our exports to Europe are only one-tenth of what we sell to the United States right now. Don't get us wrong, the U.S. will always be one of our best partners, but as we learned during the BSE crisis, we must not be too reliant on any one market.

For some of our value-added exports like beef and pork, there is almost no access today, and on the grain side, issues like regulatory approvals for new crop traits are trade killers.

Any trade deal where access is not real is no deal at all. It is critical for grain farmers that an acceptable low-level presence policy be negotiated concurrently with this trade deal.

In our meetings with EU countries, we said we appreciated that their consumers do not want to buy genetically modified food and we respected that. We explained that we were not trying to export GM traits, but what we wanted was a policy where if a couple of kernels accidentally get mixed in, or there is some dust in the boat from a previous shipment, trade can continue. Once we explained this, we saw many of them nod their heads in agreement. They know, and we know, there must be an agreement on this issue.

I would now like to turn the mike over to Jim Gowland, who brings a lot of experience in exporting soybeans to the European Union.

11:25 a.m.

Jim Gowland Past-President, Canadian Soybean Council, Grain Growers of Canada

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and committee members.

My name is Jim Gowland. I'm a cash-crop producer from Bruce County near Walkerton, Ontario. For well over 30 years I have farmed with my spouse Judy, my corporate business partner. We currently produce approximately 2,200 acres of field crops, including soybeans, wheat, corn, and white beans.

Similar to other Canadian producers, our farm maintains a sustainable crop rotation that maximizes yield and quality attributes, cost-effective utilization of equipment capital, and sophisticated technology practices that ultimately result in our long-term business profitability.

Our farm business success can be attributed to taking advantage of opportunities that add value in the above-mentioned crops we produce. For my presentation today, I will focus on the crop of soybeans, which is our farm's largest and most value-added crop.

For the purposes of this hearing on the EU, approximately 60% of our 900 to 1,000 acres annually of non-genetically-modified, non-GMO, and identity preserved, IP--the other IP in the world--soybeans enter the European Union market.

I also have been privileged to have been previously involved externally, off our farm, in provincial soybean organizations and was also the founder of a national soybean organization. Those organizational responsibilities allowed me to be part of numerous national and international market development and trade experiences over a decade.

Specifically to our farm, and under proper management and segregation practices, the added value generated to our operation for 900 acres of non-GM and IP soybeans is well in excess of $60,000 to $70,000 of increased returns annually.

In comparison to regular crushed-commodity soybeans, the above amount would reflect an increased per acre value of approximately 15% to 20%. We consider this premium as a return on management and investment.

When I evaluate the importance of the EU market in our farm operation, the gross farm gate amount with premium included would represent approximately $300,000 annually. The balance of our value-added soybean production finds its way into Japan and Asia.

Within the Canadian soybean industry as a whole, the importance and impact of the EU market is a tremendous success story, as soybeans are the top export commodity from Canada.

As reported in Government of Canada 2010 statistics, Canada produced approximately 4.34 million metric tonnes of soybeans in 2010, with over 2.6 million tonnes exported from Canada. That represents 60% of Canadian soybean production. Of significance is that the EU imported 1.173 million metric tonnes of the above 2.6 million metric tonnes, or more than 44% of Canadian soybean exports.

As a dollar amount, EU soybean imports represent $575 million of revenues to the Canadian soybean industry.

It's very difficult to quantify and qualify the value-added or premium component for Canadian soybean producers, but it could easily represent an industry aggregate of at least $50 million annually for producers.

In addition, with the high demand for Canadian high-quality soybeans by export markets and a strong Canadian domestic demand for soybeans for crushing into meal and oil, strong domestic cash-basis levels are also improved, which is another very good monetary benefit for Canadian soybean producers.

Although the EU is a Canadian success story for soybeans, the EU is a very competitive and strict marketplace with stringent regulations. I believe that Canada has turned and can continue to turn the regulatory requirements of the EU market into more opportunities.

That being said, the Canadian grains and oilseeds industry and the Canadian government must continue to work hard together in trade negotiations with the EU and specifically with non-tariff trade barriers such as manageable low-level presence policies. It is equally important to develop low-level presence guidelines here in Canada.

As a Canadian producer, I commend all those for the positive outcomes to date of these Canada-EU negotiations.

Most certainly, I thank you for the privilege to present today. Thank you.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you all for your presentations.

We'll now move to question and answer.

Mr. Masse, the floor is yours. You have seven minutes.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the delegations for being here today.

My first question is to the Chamber of Commerce. I think it was really appropriate that you noted the transition periods that took place. You're right, the furniture industry and the suit industry did do very well in the brief term after that. I had a chance to tour both of those industries as part of the industry committee's study on manufacturing, and now they're decimated because of the other issues they faced. They got a short-term benefit but are a long-term casualty in the Canadian economy. Similar to that, you also had other unexpected negative issues with NAFTA, and I'm looking for your expertise here.

With regard to the Auto Pact, when we went into NAFTA the Auto Pact was not to be a part of the negotiations and we were able to exit it, but a third party, Japan, was able to challenge that. We went from second in the world in terms of auto manufacturing to eighth. Over the last number of years we've witnessed the manufacturing sector being decimated.

What really connects, though, is a plant like mine in Windsor, the minivan plant. The vehicles literally go across the border several times to be assembled completely. We assemble them in Windsor but the parts come from a variety of places in the United States and even from Japan. It's a very successful model. But at the same time, what I'm concerned about, and I would like your expertise, is with regard to the content and how that could be interpreted in Europe.

We see today again that Canada is actually going for further North American automotive integration with emission standards, and that could also negate access to their markets.

I would like your comments on that from your experience, please.