Evidence of meeting #12 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nafta.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mathias Hartpence  Director, International Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Milos Barutciski  Partner and Co-Chair, International Trade and Investment Practice, Bennett Jones, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Richard Phillips  Executive Director, Grain Growers of Canada
Jim Gowland  Past-President, Canadian Soybean Council, Grain Growers of Canada
Robert Blackburn  Senior Vice-President, SNC-Lavalin International Inc.
Scott Sinclair  Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

11:50 a.m.

Partner and Co-Chair, International Trade and Investment Practice, Bennett Jones, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Milos Barutciski

We have many members in the chamber who are dedicated and committed to supply management. We have many local chambers that are dedicated and committed to seeing supply management continue. So I'm not going to speak on their behalf, and I don't think the chamber is going to speak on their behalf. The chamber is a national organization that covers literally every sector. The chamber is never going to say that this is what we want to see for such and such a sector. Mr. Masse asked me if we know, as a chamber, the likely winners and losers. We do know the concerns of certain sectors, but we also know what the concerns are on the other side. So I can't answer your question on details.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

I would put it to you this way--

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Let's have a very quick question, and a quick answer.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Our concern has increased recently with what's happened to the Canadian Wheat Board. The government didn't allow a vote of producers as the minister promised he would do. I would say to all organizations, including the Grain Growers of Canada, that they should be concerned when democratic rights are bulldozed down the river.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I think you're a little late on your question, but since you haven't used your time to ask the question, I'm going to go to Mr. Hiebert.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Mr. Brinkmann, whom my colleague referenced a moment ago, made a statement at this particular event, where he said, “The EU won't harmonize standards, but manufacturers need to produce to one standard for all of North America”. Can somebody explain to me the impact this would have if this were part of the CETA negotiations? Is it foreseeable that North America could produce to one standard to satisfy these negotiations?

Mr. Barutciski, you talked a little about regulations, and I'm trying to understand this better, because there are 27 member states and I would presume they all have their own regulations. They're still sovereign countries. Canada has its own regulations, the U.S. has its own regulations. Here we have the present EU ambassador saying they won't harmonize their standards, but they're expecting we would harmonize to a North American standard. Can you unpack this for me and help me understand? If we're not going to harmonize our regulations, how does it work? How do you manufacture to a common standard?

11:55 a.m.

Partner and Co-Chair, International Trade and Investment Practice, Bennett Jones, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Milos Barutciski

Everything you've said is absolutely right. We have 13 provincial and territorial governments, each with their own regulations across a wide range of areas, industrial, agricultural, and so on, and that is the world that everybody, every manufacturer, every grower or exporter, has to deal with. In some areas--and we were touching on it when I think Mr. Gowland mentioned the low-level issue--there are international standards. So in that context, I gather from his testimony, something is being developed on food products and food safety at the Codex Alimentarius, which is the UN agency based in Rome.

We have ISO standards in a bunch of areas, and the way the technical standards world works is that quite often countries will adopt a version of the international standard and tweak it here and there for local needs or for whatever reason they think is important. But there's no question it's a spaghetti bowl, and manufacturers routinely have to adapt product to different communities, different standards, different packaging and labelling requirements.

We have bilingual labelling. Every American and European manufacturer that makes a consumer product that comes to Canada has to have a separate line to run and package the Canadian-destined product. In Spain it's different. In Latin America it's different. In Brazil it's different yet again. So that is the reality.

I'm talking about labelling, but it doesn't say anything about the actual technical standards for electrical standards, for example. We have a Canadian electrical code that is designed by the CSA, but each province has adopted a slightly different version of it. Again, it's something that over time tends to—“harmonize” is perhaps the wrong word--converge, so that manufacturers ultimately make a product or aim to make a product that will satisfy multiple standards.

Are we going to harmonize with the United States for the European Union and are the 27 member states of the European Union going to harmonize on a range of issues? On a range of issues, they already have. The EU has directives across the range of consumer and other products where they've said this is the European standard and these standards can be departed from here and there for one's own particular purposes, but they must be met Europe-wide and the other EU countries' standards must be accepted. So it's a bit of a spaghetti bowl, but that's the spaghetti bowl manufacturers and exporters have to deal with.

Your second question, on regulatory cooperation, goes to the point I was trying to make in my opening testimony, which is too often.... Sorry, let me back up. The aim of regulatory cooperation in this trade agreement, and I hope in future trade agreements, isn't to impose a one-size-fits-all uniform, technical standard across a range of subjects. It's to create mechanisms that allow the regulators to take into account what the inadvertent impacts will be on our trading partners and on our own manufacturers who are trying to export into foreign markets of imposing a standard that is completely out of whack with either international standards or key trading partner standards.

In other words, it's not a mechanism to force harmonization. There may not be any harmonization on anything. It's a mechanism to allow enough communication to know in advance that if the CFIA, the Food Inspection Agency, goes in this direction or if Health Canada under the Hazardous Products Act does or the Europeans under their REACH chemical regulations go over here, we will have mechanisms to flag potential issues that will have trade effects.

So that's what we're talking about, not an across-the-board, wholesale harmonization, but wholesale harmonization in some areas is on the table and there are areas where we have negotiated through the ISO process, sometimes through voluntary standards that industries have adopted. Industry standards are now commonly accepted around the world; other areas, like emission standards, are less accepted.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Will that be negotiated? Isn't it part of the agreement?

Noon

Partner and Co-Chair, International Trade and Investment Practice, Bennett Jones, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Milos Barutciski

It's not part of the agreement. When they talk regulatory cooperation, it's not to create a framework that will then impose harmonized standards on everybody.

Noon

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

It sounds more like a warning system.

Noon

Partner and Co-Chair, International Trade and Investment Practice, Bennett Jones, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Milos Barutciski

It's a warning system, and channels of communication will allow, as the regulatory process develops standards and regulations, red flags to come up and be dealt with.

Noon

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

How much time do I have?

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

You have one minute.

Noon

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

The other thing you talked about was this negative list. My understanding is that it's very ambitious: it puts everything on the table except.... Is that how it worked with NAFTA?

Noon

Partner and Co-Chair, International Trade and Investment Practice, Bennett Jones, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

Milos Barutciski

Yes. In other words, what we have on the investment provisions in chapter 11 of NAFTA apply to all sectors, and then there are annexes and schedules that say that Canada—and there are others for the United States and Mexico—makes reservations on these sectors, on these particular regulations.

Another example is the Investment Canada Act. There's a very specific reference in the annex to the NAFTA that says that whatever commitments we've made under chapter 11, the Investment Canada Act is still the law of Canada, and the other parties agree.

That's kind of how it works. We set a standard across the board, and then we carve out those things we have concerns about. The traditional European and WTO approach was to say that we're only going to liberalize on these 16 things. So you have, for example, the general agreement on trade and services, the services side of the WTO. It only applies to the sectors that each member has volunteered it to apply to.

That means that in the first negotiation we put up six sectors, the Europeans put up twelve, the Americans put up ten, and the Japanese put up three, and then it's a tough haul to move to the next level of liberalization. This sets the high standard right at the outset, except for those things that you've excluded.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I want to thank you very much. Our time for this segment is gone. I want to thank the Grain Growers of Canada for coming in. To the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, thank you for your input. It's been very valuable.

We will suspend for a few minutes to allow our second table of presenters to come forward and be seated.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I call the meeting to order.

We want to thank our witnesses for being here. We have the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, Scott Sinclair, and SNC-Lavalin International Inc., Mr. Blackburn. Thank you both for being here.

Mr. Blackburn, I believe you're up first.

12:05 p.m.

Robert Blackburn Senior Vice-President, SNC-Lavalin International Inc.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

I'm Robert Blackburn, senior vice-president with SNC-Lavalin. I'm responsible for relations with government, international development banks, and, by serendipity, for our markets in sub-Saharan Africa. So I have a number of roles.

We support and welcome the government's commitment to growing and diversifying Canadian export markets, markets for exporters of goods and services, and investors. We welcomed the Prime Minister's statements about this, last weekend in Hawaii.

We're very focused on growing and diversifying our markets outside North America. We have only 3% of our business in the United States, but in Europe last year, excluding Russia, we had 7% of revenues of $6.3 billion, so about $453 million. Europe is an important market for us. We're in France, Belgium, Romania, Spain, and the United Kingdom.

We have about 11,000 employees outside Canada. We have 4,000 in Latin America, 3,000 in Europe, and 1,000 in Africa. We're focusing on building our presence not only in fast-growing markets but also in Europe, which is our second-largest source of imports and destination for exports and source of investment for Canada. So it's an important market. It doesn't have the fast growth characteristics perhaps of some of the other markets in the news, but it's a very important one.

We're active in Europe in the infrastructure field. We manage ten airports. We have ownership stakes in some of them and we're just building a new one on the French island of Mayotte, of all places. We're helping to arrange the financing and we're going to manage it for the next 15 years. We're also involved in light rail, industrial, mining, and various other sectors. So Europe is an important market for us.

We're optimistic. We're happy that there have now been nine successful rounds of the comprehensive economic and trade agreement negotiations with Europe. I know they're getting down to the tough issues now. We've been keeping track of these things.

Our interests, as you might expect, are for the free movement of people—business people, experts—back and forth among Canada and the European countries. We use our talent pool globally. We're active in about 100 countries and we move our people around, finding the best expertise for the projects we're undertaking. Right now, we have about 10,000 projects around the world. We couldn't micromanage things the way the government sometimes tries to micromanage things.

We would also like to see a comprehensive agreement on services. Milos talked about the negative list approach, which we think was the only way to go, that we would really realize some of our objectives. Mutual recognition of professional qualifications is also an important subject. We want to be treated without discrimination in infrastructure markets and in government procurement. There needs to be a credible, reliable, dispute settlement mechanism and a mechanism that could provide compensation when there is discriminatory treatment.

Just as a final point, I think it's great to see the provinces involved the way they have been in this negotiation. There was a hint of that two years ago in the stimulus package involving the provinces in an agreement with the United States on government procurement. My hope might be that the provinces' cooperation in that way in foreign markets might lead to some further cooperation among the provinces here in Canada in strengthening our own internal market, which still has a lot of impediments. Just go across the river and you may have to tear up a sidewalk because it wasn't built by the right kinds of workers.

Anyway, thank you very much. I'd be happy to take any questions, in English or French.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

You're absolutely right: the side effects of an agreement like this could help us improve our own domestic lot.

12:10 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, SNC-Lavalin International Inc.

Robert Blackburn

Let's hope we can get used to working together.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Exactly.

We have Scott Sinclair now, from the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. The floor is yours, Scott.

November 17th, 2011 / 12:10 p.m.

Scott Sinclair Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee. It's a pleasure to be here today.

As its name suggests, the comprehensive economic and trade agreement, CETA, is intended to be an ambitious agreement that will affect matters beyond international trade. Traditional trade barriers between Canada and the European Union are already very low. Our average tariffs are about 3.3%. The Europeans' are 2.2%. Even total elimination is not going to provide that much of a kick. The exchange rate changes more than that—sometimes in a day, these days.

What we are dealing with here are regulatory issues, non-tariff barriers, and governance issues. Now, in every bilateral trade negotiation since the NAFTA, Canada has been the larger party. It's been able to set the terms of the talks and work from its existing trade treaty template. But the CETA negotiations are different. The EU is a superpower, used to getting its way in talks with smaller partners.

Consequently, the CETA could result in major changes in the trade and investment rules, affecting a broad range of Canadian policies at all levels of government. In the brief time available, I will highlight some potential impacts related to investment protection, government purchasing, and public services—and if time allows, intellectual property rights and drug costs.

Investor rights agreements, such as the NAFTA chapter 11, go well beyond fair treatment. They grant special rights to foreign investors that enable them to bypass domestic court systems. Arbitral tribunals can order governments to compensate investors allegedly harmed by public policies or regulations. There have been 30 investor state claims against Canada under NAFTA and cases continue to mount. Canada has lost or settled five claims and paid damages of over $150 million.

Some of the most controversial features of the NAFTA investment chapter have not been included in previous EU trade agreements. However, the European Commission recently gained the power to negotiate investment protection agreements on behalf of the entire EU.

Early in the CETA negotiations, Canada put the NAFTA chapter 11 template on the table. The EU has now responded, quite recently in fact, and under pressure from some of the member states has been demanding an agreement with even stronger investment protections than the NAFTA in certain respects. It is also insisting that provinces and municipalities fully comply.

Under the NAFTA's most-favoured-nation rules, any concessions made to European investors in the CETA are automatically extended to U.S. and Mexican investors.

Canada's experience under the NAFTA is raising some concerns in Europe. Both the European Parliament and an official EU sustainability impact assessment have questioned the need for including investor state dispute settlement in the CETA.

In addition, under the investor state arbitration rules of the European energy charter treaty, a Swedish energy company, Vattenfall, recently launched some very contentious claims against Germany—the first investor state claims ever against Germany—related to the regulation of a coal-fired plant in Hamburg and Germany's decision to phase out nuclear power.

But public awareness is still low, and the CETA threatens to expand this controversial model of investor protection before citizens understand all the implications. Both Canada and Europe have mature, highly regarded court systems that protect the rights of all investors, regardless of their nationalities. There is little or no justification for including investor state arbitration in these negotiations.

Now I'm moving to procurement and public services. Unconditional access to government procurement, particularly at the provincial and local government levels, is the EU's top priority in these negotiations. The proposed restrictions would severely curtail governments' ability to use their purchasing power to enhance local benefits. The rules prohibit local development conditions, which are defined as offsets, even when contracts are competed for openly and do not discriminate against foreign suppliers.

Canadian governments could lose a valuable tool for creating employment, protecting the environment, and assisting marginalized groups. Furthermore, many Canadian public services are provided by provincial and municipal governments. European companies want market access to the provision of these public utilities.

The CETA would be the first Canadian trade treaty to cover municipal-level procurement, including vital services such as waste management, public transit, and drinking water.

The exclusion of local government procurement from previous trade treaties has definitely reduced the risk of litigation and demands for compensation from corporations when privatization schemes go off the rails. Under the CETA, once a local government decides to contract out a service, it would trigger powerful rights for foreign companies to challenge any perceived bias, any local development conditions, and any attempt to halt or reverse the contracting-out process.

European multinationals have successfully pursued investor state cases over failed privatizations in developing countries such as Argentina, winning damage awards of hundreds of millions of dollars. While the CETA may not force governments to privatize, giving new legal rights to corporations would facilitate commercialization and help lock in privatization. It would also interfere with the ability of future governments to expand or create new public services.

Now, as you've heard in previous testimony, the CETA would be the first Canadian bilateral free trade agreement since the NAFTA to have an intellectual property rights chapter, and it would go well beyond Canada's existing obligations under the NAFTA and the WTO. The leaked draft text contains some very aggressive EU demands. These include an extended term of patent protection that would add the time it takes for a drug to receive regulatory approval--which can be up to five years--onto the regular period of monopoly protection. It also includes longer terms of data exclusivity. Canada already has among the highest in the world, but they want it to go eight to ten years, which is the European standard. And it includes new rights of appeal that would enable the brand-name drug industry to delay the approval of generic drugs.

Any combination of these changes would reduce the availability of cheaper generic medicines and drive up costs to provincial governments and Canadian consumers. A study by two respected experts estimates these extra costs at $2.8 billion annually.

Brand-name drug companies claim that they need strong intellectual property protection to justify investing in research and development in Canada. Yet these same companies have consistently failed to fulfill previous promises, made during the NAFTA negotiations, to invest 10% of their sales in research and development in Canada.

More importantly, drug costs are the fastest-rising component of Canadian health care costs. Containing drug costs is absolutely essential, and the CETA intellectual property provisions could deal a critical blow to the sustainability of Canada's universal health care system.

That brings my opening statement to a close.

In these and other issues that I've discussed, the CETA negotiations are more concerned with limiting the ability of governments to regulate than with reducing certainly traditional trade barriers. And for that reason, it raises some very serious issues and puts the future of many important policy tools and public programs in question.

Thank you.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much for both of those presentations.

We'll now move to the question and answer portion of the meeting.

Madame Péclet.

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Thanks to the witnesses. My questions will be for Mr. Sinclair.

In your presentation, you mentioned local development and local benefits. You said it was the duty of the municipalities and provincial governments to stimulate the local economy. You discussed the principle of non-discrimination, which is part of the treaty negotiations and which is at the origin of the national treatment rule. In other words, it will be impossible for government entities to give local entrepreneurs preferential treatment or to stimulate local employment.

Can you comment on that effect of the agreement?

12:20 p.m.

Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Scott Sinclair

Thank you for the question.

The CETA would be the first of Canada's international trade treaties to include binding commitments on municipal governments. Until the recent Buy American deal, which included some provincial procurement under the WTO agreement on government procurement, that was also true of provincial governments.

As you state, one of the most contentious parts of the CETA text--which is standard in the WTO agreement on government procurement and in the NAFTA procurement chapter, but these have not applied at the local level and until recently at the provincial government level--is a prohibition of what are called offsets. And offsets are simply defined as any local development condition.

When SNC-Lavalin and other Canadian corporations are active around the world--and the same is true of European corporations here--they are able to compete on contracts, but public entities will negotiate with them for local benefits. They will look, as governments should, at local employment, local training, taxes paid in the local economy, and they will make determinations of best value based on that. To me, that is a responsible use of taxpayers' money. It's completely consistent with open tendering processes. The criteria are spelled out clearly in advance, weighted, and the best bid wins. We do apply local development criteria.