Evidence of meeting #14 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was public.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Theresa McClenaghan  Executive Director and Counsel, Canadian Environmental Law Association
Vicky Sharpe  President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
Daniel Schwanen  Associate Vice-President, Trade and International Policy, C.D. Howe Institute
Don McIver  Director of Research, Atlantic Institute for Market Studies

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

We'll call the meeting to order. It's out of hand before it even starts.

We have some witnesses waiting for this day's study on the comprehensive economic and trade agreement with the European Union and Canada.

We appreciate the witnesses for coming forward. We have two of them. We have Ms. Vicky Sharpe, who's the president and chief executive officer of Sustainable Development Technology Canada, and by video conference from Toronto, Ontario, we have Theresa McClenaghan.

Are we coming through okay, Theresa?

11 a.m.

Theresa McClenaghan Executive Director and Counsel, Canadian Environmental Law Association

Yes, I can hear you fine. Thank you.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

We can hear you as well.

Theresa is executive director and counsel for the Canadian Environmental Law Association.

We'll start with Ms. Vicky Sharpe. The floor is yours and you have ten minutes.

11 a.m.

Dr. Vicky Sharpe President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the opportunity to be here this morning to address you on what is a very important topic for the success of the companies that SDTC supports. I believe you have our presentation there.

The points that I want to start out with is that the clean-tech industry is one that is not perhaps well understood, but it's generated some 44,000 jobs, which are in fact in excess of the direct jobs in the extraction industries of mining and forestry, and comparable to those in oil and gas. So they are important players in the success of our natural resource industries and beyond that, in looking at how we use energy and create efficiencies for this country.

Ninety-two percent of these clean-tech companies are small and medium-sized enterprises. They do work that integrates into a broad number of sectors and they are actually driving the economy. Some 60% of Canada's workforce is accounted for by SMEs. Forty-five percent of Canada's GDP and 75% of the net job growth is dependent on the success of SMEs.

SDTC works with these companies to build their value proposition and their technologies, and to strengthen them to receive private sector investment, and also to get them to customers and channels to market. As you can see on the second slide of our presentation, these companies are spread across the country. They represent clusters and capability. They are very broad-ranging and they're very diverse.

We currently have about a $1.9-billion portfolio of projects under management, of which the government has put in $500 million and the rest is being put in predominantly, some 80-odd percent, by industry. These companies, numbering 220 in total in the portfolio, are generating jobs and revenues. The total job numbers cumulative to 2011 will be in the order of just over $400 million, which the government has put $100 million into.

So they are generating revenues, and that's for only one-fifth of our current portfolio. These companies have a compound annual growth in revenue of twice that of non-SDTC clean-tech companies and twice the global average. Incidentally, the leverage on public dollars is about times 14.

The proposition that we want to put to this committee, which you'll see on slide three, is that the clean-tech business is a very important one for Canada's economy. Eighty percent of Canadian clean-tech companies export, as compared to 90% of SMEs in general. Fifty-three percent of those revenues that are exports are outside of the U.S., or 55% is outside of the U.S.

The revenues on the export sales side for non-U.S., which is predominantly the EU, is 23%. So we've got some very important players, and they are already quite robust, but an enhanced liberalized trade agreement with Europe will significantly help these companies move forward and be more successful.

If I could turn your attention to the histogram on slide five, it shows that already we produce and have globally competitive Canadian companies in the SDTC portfolio. The representation in the black part of that column shows that historically about 10% of our SME exports are into Europe, and that is an amount that we believe will grow. We are predicting a forecast of about 14% of the exports will be in the EU by 2014, and this is without a CETA arrangement. The position we have is that you have strong Canadian clean-tech companies that could certainly do with a strengthening of those opportunities.

If you look at the slide on page 6, you can see that we are competitive with the European Union. We have nine globally competitive subsectors ranging from upstream technologies in biofuels and power generation to downstream segments notably in remediation and soil treatment, recycling and recovery, and energy efficiency. We also have water segments. We have capacity to respond to them.

We're very excited because the European Union represents a very large market and a significant opportunity on the environmental side, because as we know--and you can see that with their low carbon policies--the EU has an orientation towards environmental approaches. Therefore we see this as an opportunity for the clean-tech companies to build and access that market, something that will be greatly facilitated by the CETA arrangement the government is negotiating.

That captures the bulk of my comments in support of this for Canadian clean-tech companies.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much for your presentation. It was very informative, and I think we could follow very clearly with the slides.

We now have Theresa McClenaghan, from the Canadian Environmental Law Association.

The floor is yours, madam. Go ahead.

11:05 a.m.

Executive Director and Counsel, Canadian Environmental Law Association

Theresa McClenaghan

Thank you very much for inviting me to appear today and also for accommodating a video conference. I would have preferred to attend in Ottawa. I would have had the benefit of the slides, for example. But it would have meant changing a flight, so I really appreciate this.

The Canadian Environmental Law Association is an environmental law clinic, one of the specialty clinics in the Ontario legal aid clinic system. We're a 41-year-old, federally incorporated, not-for-profit ENGO. In addition to representing financially eligible groups and individuals and families, we also have a mandate that includes environmental law reform and public legal education.

Before I begin, I wish to thank our articling student, Kyra Bell-Pasht, who prepared the backgrounder on which my remarks are based this morning. And I wish to acknowledge the very helpful work of the previous articling students and volunteer lawyers at CELA who conducted earlier analyses.

CELA has had the opportunity to review drafts of the proposed comprehensive economic and trade agreement between Canada and the European Union. Unfortunately, the process has not been as transparent as we would argue for, and our analysis is based on copies of the agreements that have been leaked to civil society. That being said, I hope we can provide some helpful commentary.

The fundamental perspective we bring to our analysis is that we work to ensure that each level of government can act to protect the environment in diverse ways. As we have argued before the courts, and as the Supreme Court has agreed, we have a strong system in Canada of action on environmental matters by municipal, provincial, federal, and of course first nations governments, which is in addition to action at the international level.

In most of the important environmental issues, action at all levels, at all scales, is essential for strong environmental and environmental health protection. Therefore, when we look at the proposed trade agreements and make recommendations, we're primarily concerned with ensuring that those diverse levels of jurisdiction and the ability to act, with the aim of having strong environmental protection, are flexible and well protected.

We have concerns that the current state of negotiations and drafting may not sufficiently protect the environment, so our analysis makes some recommendations in that respect.

First of all, I'll talk about the concept of national treatment, which is proposed to be applicable, in this case, for the first time, at the provincial levels as well as at the national level. CELA notes that there's language in the draft agreement providing for an exception when there are legitimate objectives, such as public security; safety; public order; protection of human, animal, or plant life or health; and protection of the environment. That's good. What we would recommend, however, is that this exception should not be limited, as is currently proposed, by the language of “necessary” measures only ; it should be broadened to measures that are intended to apply to or that relate to environmental and health objectives. Also, we noticed that in the last draft CETA we saw, the EU proposed limiting that exception to exceptional circumstances. We don't agree with that.

The next topic I want to quickly mention is marking and labelling. The draft agreement says that marking and labelling requirements should not be more trade restrictive than necessary. Our point here is that we're working all the time to expand marking and labelling requirements and to provide for more consumer information, such as the ingredients in products, for example. It's important to provide a strong foundation for informed choices. The agreement should allow consumers to be fully informed as to product constituents and ingredients and should allow relevant environmental standards, such as eco-labelling. We wouldn't like to see the language around the words “trade restrictive” hampering that.

The next topic I want to address is the environmental laws chapter and the sustainable development chapter. We have reviewed the proposed draft environmental laws chapter. We prefer the more expansive definition of environmental laws we've seen so far in the EU proposal, which, for example, includes explicit reference to conservation and sustainable use of biological diversity.

We were pleased that it didn't limit the application of the chapter on environmental laws to laws whose primary purpose is environmental protection—it was broadened to include laws that took into account other environmental issues. We also thought they defined the word “environment” very well. Their definition includes terrestrial and marine ecosystems, atmospheric conditions, and climate change issues. It also had a broader definition of “environmental laws”, which we preferred. The EU proposal also dealt with scientific and technical information and the precautionary principle, and we strongly endorse that. In addition, they had similar language in the occupational health and safety section, and we endorse that as well.

Another significant proposal in the environment chapter deals with the creation of domestic environmental or sustainable development advisory groups. They mention independent representatives of organizations of civil society in a balanced representation of environmental groups, business organizations, as well as other relevant stakeholders. We agreed with that EU proposal as well, because much of the practice under the CETA, if and when it's adopted, will depend on state practice and a proactive approach, with advice from well-informed stakeholders. The EU talks more explicitly about the parties implementing in their domestic laws the requirements of multilateral environment agreements to which they are parties. This was a bit more specific than the Canadian language in that part of the agreement.

There was a proposal in the last draft of CETA that we think is quite important, to the effect that challenges to environmental measures would not be subject to monetary compensation. CELA agrees with that provision because otherwise there's the potential—and we've seen it in other cases—to have the agreement operate as a substantial regulatory chill against environmental decision-making by the parties, both nationally and at the subnational levels. The EU also proposed a sustainable development chapter in the CETA, which we support. For example, it included mandated transparency and public participation, and supported fair and ethical trade practices.

I want to mention the topic of expropriation. We would recommend deletion of the proposed expropriation provisions, even though the draft CETA proposes limiting potential claims of indirect expropriation in an environmental regulation context. A better approach, we believe, is the one that we saw in the United States-Australia bilateral free trade agreement, which doesn't contain that kind of a provision, over and above the regular domestic laws of each party. At the time, they did a regulatory impact statement and noted that both of those countries had well-developed court systems and economic systems, with no special provisions needed.

They explained it by saying:

In recognition of the unique circumstances of this Agreement, including for example, the long-standing economic ties between the U.S. and Australia, their shared legal traditions and the confidence of their investors in operating in each other's markets, the two countries agree not to implement procedures in the FTA that would allow investors to arbitrate disputes with governments.

They said that government-to-government dispute mechanisms remain available. Interestingly, this past spring Australia released a trade policy statement reinforcing that perspective. So we would say the same conditions should apply between Europe and Canada. This would be a significant improvement.

We advocate allowing for green procurement, which aids market transformation in the direction of more sustainable practices, products, and services. In other words, governments can specify that they want greener provision of services, products, and practices.

We are concerned about opening public services to private sector involvement, in particular in the context of drinking water and waste water. We have consistently supported public ownership and governance of drinking water and waste water systems because of accountability, safety, and affordability issues.

The last thing to mention on the analysis is the general exceptions provision, which includes an exception for some of the provisions for those matters necessary to protect human, animal, or plant life or health or those that relate to conservation of exhaustible natural resources. We support that, but, as I indicated in the earlier context, we say it should be drafted more broadly.

So in conclusion, we would submit that there are promising environmental protection provisions in the lastest draft of the CETA supported by both parties, as we've seen it. We prefer some of the provisions proposed by Canada and some of the provisions promoted by the EU, and overall we would suggest that as the drafting and the negotiating continue there be stringent evaluation of the entire CETA—all the preambles, the general language, the operative provisions, the interpretive provisions, the side agreements if there are any, the annexes, and so on—to ensure that the direction is to support the ability of all three levels of government in Canada to take strong environmental protection measures.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to make those comments. I'll attempt to answer questions if there are any.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I have a feeling there will probably be some, and we'll go to those right now.

We have Mr. Côté first, for seven minutes.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Raymond Côté NDP Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies, thank you for joining us to answer our questions.

I would like to speak to Ms. McClenaghan first.

Can you hear the translation?

11:20 a.m.

Executive Director and Counsel, Canadian Environmental Law Association

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Raymond Côté NDP Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Last June 15, your organization sent a letter to Minister Fast in which you outlined your concerns about the free trade agreement with Europe. Did you get a reply from the minister?

11:20 a.m.

Executive Director and Counsel, Canadian Environmental Law Association

Theresa McClenaghan

You know, unfortunately, I can't answer that for sure right now, since I haven't pulled my file in a few days. I've been out of the office. So I apologize.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Raymond Côté NDP Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Fine. I understand.

So it was not possible for you to make contact with the minister in another way?

11:20 a.m.

Executive Director and Counsel, Canadian Environmental Law Association

Theresa McClenaghan

To be fair to the minister, I also didn't request a meeting, although perhaps there will be an opportunity in the future to do that.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Raymond Côté NDP Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you.

My next question is for Ms. Sharpe.

Finding out about all your activities is quite fascinating. As one who dabbles in economics, I will admit that the subject of Canadian clean technology exports caught my eye. The table on page 5 shows the present results and the forecasts for the future.

If we look at real exports as a percentage of all export activities, it might be said that you seem very optimistic for 2012, 2013 and 2014. I imagine that is a function of the completion of a free trade agreement. But on page 7, we can see that, in Europe, investments in clean technology are consistently declining. At present, things are difficult; in the future, they are uncertain.

Do you think that your forecasts on page 5 are still justified? Are they still realistic?

11:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada

Dr. Vicky Sharpe

Thank you very much.

The assumptions on page 5 are based on the fact that we haven't got the CETA component in there. These are based on questions to the clean-tech companies we work with out of the portfolio across Canada. We've talked about their paths to market, their intended target markets, the partnerships they have, and how they should move forward. So the data is not entirely ours, it's from Analytica. However, we have contributed a lot of work to that. A lot of our assessments are getting quite granular, and we have a number companies.... I can give you an example. The company is called Ostara. It takes waste water and turns that waste water into a very high-quality fertilizer and reduces the pollution in the water. It has formed a partnership with Veolia, a $50-billion annual revenue business in Paris. They are partnered with that company and have now become specified within the bid contracts Veolia is putting out into Europe.

So we're seeing partnerships and those opportunities as a reason for the increase. We haven't attempted an exact measurement of what CETA could do. We just believe that Europe is a great environmentally oriented market.

I hope that helps.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Raymond Côté NDP Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Yes, I understand. Thank you.

Still on page 5, we are talking about a relative increase, by which I mean the impact of trade with Europe as a percentage of all exports. We are not talking about the real volume of exports, of course.

Does the forecast of 13% or 14% represent a real increase in activity or simply a percentage increase caused by a collapse or a decline in the American market?

11:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada

Dr. Vicky Sharpe

Thank you--another excellent question.

In terms of growth, we see the U.S. market as not as large as the EU, as you have noted on one of the slides. However, those are percentages. In total size, we see the clean-tech market growing as a whole. At the moment, the clean-tech revenues for Canada are some $9 billion, currently representing 0.9% of the global market opportunity.

A number of organizations have predicted that the total market for clean-tech will grow from about $1 trillion in 2010 to anything from $1 trillion to $5 trillion in 2020. What we're trying to do is seize 2% of that increased growth. In total numbers, as opposed to percentages, we see genuine growth in Canadian companies being competitive globally. So there will be an increase. I guess a pro-rata thing is that if we currently have 44,000 jobs from 0.9% of $1 trillion, the forecast is we will have 126,000 clean-tech jobs in Canada, if we're able to move from roughly 1% to 2% of that larger market.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Raymond Côté NDP Beauport—Limoilou, QC

The nature of clean technology depends on the definition, of course. It can include all kinds of things.

Can you give us an idea of the biggest growth areas in clean technology? I am thinking about biofuels, among other things.

11:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada

Dr. Vicky Sharpe

Yes, the technologies are integrated into the natural resource. Forestry, agriculture—we're now moving heavily in the oil and gas side—and energy efficiency use in buildings would be the primary ones where we're having big successes.

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

Mr. Holder.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank our guests for attending this morning. We appreciate this very much. I find your testimonies very interesting.

Ms. McClenaghan, I'm encouraged to hear you say you saw promising environmental provisions in what you've seen. I also heard Ms. Sharpe make a number of comments. I'd like to bring some clarity around this first.

Dr. Sharpe, I've had some exposure to your organization by having attended meetings with announcements you've made at Sustainable Development Technology Canada. Could you very briefly put more context to this? Tell us what the purpose of the SDTC is, what it's intended to do. If I understand correctly, the Government of Canada made this investment to get this going, in concert with industry or venture capitalists. Would you help us understand your beginnings or genesis?

11:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada

Dr. Vicky Sharpe

Thank you very much.

Our mandate is to develop a sustainable development technology infrastructure in Canada. We do that by selecting and picking strong Canadian companies that have clean technologies and need to develop those, and we put funding into them—one third of it being the federal government's, two thirds mostly private sector—and those projects de-risk technology, and then we work with a company to build its capability to seek private sector investment. What we do is we bridge the valley of death, if you'd like to call it that, by taking risk that only the government will take and then working with the private sector to introduce those companies for their investments to get them to the market.

There is twofold benefit. One is that we are providing environmental benefits through these technologies by their application for society, and the other one is that we are obviously improving the economy. We are mandated to do this as broadly as possible and to diffuse into the market as fast as possible, and that addresses the third element, the definition of sustainability, which is broad, societal benefit to Canadians.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

I thought Monsieur Côté asked a very good question when he asked about the growth in clean-tech jobs over the course of the next several years, and we saw the graph there that showed growth without CETA up to 2014. I'm reminded that we had a recent witness, a representative of the pork industry, who at one point had a market share some years ago that 75% of the market was the United States, but it had been drastically reduced as a percentage to 32%.

I recall asking a question not dissimilar to that of Monsiur Côté. I asked if that significant change in terms of focus in other places was at the expense of growth in the United States. I was advised at that time that in the move from 75% to 32%, in fact the growth in the United States had actually doubled, but all it did was talk about less emphasis or less dependence on the United States, and growth opportunities elsewhere.

As you have indicated in terms of the growth from 2010 to 2014 without CETA, do you have any sense or have you done any projections of what the potential is with the CETA agreement in place?

11:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada

Dr. Vicky Sharpe

I have to confess that we don't have what I would consider an accurate enough assessment to say what it would do, but I would like to emphasize that we have got a need for our Canadian clean-tech companies to diversify their markets, and the growth is very strongly export-oriented, so I can only see this as being one of the mechanisms that would allow us to move from having 1% of the global clean-tech business to 2%. It sounds small, but as you can see, it has a big economic impact. But we don't have accurate projections.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

You talk about that economic impact. I heard you make reference to 126,000 clean-tech jobs. So for every 1% of growth, what does that mean in terms of clean-tech jobs in Canada?