Evidence of meeting #57 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was india.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Satish Thakkar  As an Individual
Jason Langrish  Senior Trade Advisor, Canada-India Business Council
Naval Bajaj  President, Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce
Jan Westcott  President and Chief Executive Officer, Spirits Canada / Association of Canadian Distillers
C.J. Hélie  Executive Vice-President, Spirits Canada / Association of Canadian Distillers

4:35 p.m.

Jan Westcott President and Chief Executive Officer, Spirits Canada / Association of Canadian Distillers

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm Jan Westcott, and I'm the president and CEO of Spirits Canada. We're the only national trade association that represents the Canadian distilled spirits manufacturers.

I'm joined today by my colleague, C.J. Helie. We're pleased to appear before you today in support of a comprehensive economic and partnership agreement between Canada and India.

It's no surprise that consumer demand in our largest export markets—the United States, the EU, and Japan—is relatively weak due to broader economic challenges in these markets. Therefore, expanding and broadening export markets for Canadian spirits is critical to sustaining manufacturing jobs here in Canada at our facilities across the country.

Focused in the key regions of Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec, spirits production is also critical to hundreds of Canadian corn, barley, rye, and wheat farmers, as well as to thousands of small and medium-sized businesses that provide essential support services in such areas as packaging, logistics, professional services, and biotechnology.

Spirits exports represent annually over 65% of all Canadian beverage alcohol exports, and, we suggest, offer the best opportunity for future growth in strong spirits markets like India.

By federal law, all Canadian whiskies must be fermented, mashed, distilled, and aged in Canada, meaning that the opening of any new export market translates into economic activity here at home in Canada. We are perhaps one of the better examples of a very strong value-add product, where we take Canadian raw materials to a very highly prized finished product.

A comprehensive economic and partnership agreement with India would provide a huge opportunity to open what today is essentially a market that's closed to Canadian spirits. However, the key is that an agreement be comprehensive. We understand that India may seek to exclude trade in beverage alcohol reform from the scope of the final agreement. We therefore urge Canada to insist that real market access for spirits be a prerequisite for any agreement.

We say this because India's spirit market is estimated at some 250 million cases a year. To put that into perspective, the entire U.S. market for spirits is less than 200 million, and Canada's is less than 20 million. Therefore, 250 million cases is a tremendous opportunity.

Moreover, the spirits market in India is dominated by whiskies, something that we have some very unique experience in and a strong reputation. Canadian whiskies are, of course, the signature product of the Canadian spirits industry. Due to their versatility and mixability, Canadian whiskies are particularly appealing to consumers in many emerging markets, where people are keen on transitioning from local goods to western-style brands.

That said, despite a thriving and prosperous local spirits manufacturing industry, India continues to apply a range of quite protectionist measures that essentially make doing business in India cost prohibitive for Canadian businesses. The priority, therefore, in a trade agreement with India, from our perspective at least, is the elimination of the 150% import duty on spirits. Canada, for its part, eliminated most of its import tariffs on spirits some years ago, and those remaining—we still have a few—are well below 1%. We're talking about 150% versus 1%.

India's 150% import tariff rate is also well above the rates imposed by other less developed markets, such as China's at 10%, or Brazil's at 20%. Adding insult to injury, India also applies a special additional duty at a rate of 4%, which they apply on the base, including the 150% duty, raising the total import duties imposed on most Canadian spirits to 160%.

To put it bluntly, Canadian spirits manufacturers don't have the financial wherewithal to absorb a 160% import duty in order to penetrate the Indian market.

We are not naive as to the challenges that Canadian officials face in gaining real market access for Canadian spirits in an agreement. In addition to the elimination of the import and special additional duty, an agreement also needs to address the numerous Byzantine trade barriers at the state level. Not unlike our own situation here in Canada, primary constitutional authority for the sale and distribution of beverage alcohol in India rests with subnational governments.

Indeed, many of India's 28 states have adopted policies and measures, either directly or through their state trading enterprises, that significantly disadvantage imported products to the benefit of local producers.

The special additional duty I mentioned earlier, as an example, is intended to be refundable where states impose their own state-level taxes, but by design, the administrative procedures for reclaiming the duty in some states are so bureaucratic and so time-consuming that seeking due refunds is simply not cost-effective.

Some states require a liquor licence simply to transport product through the state, even if the product never enters that state's local markets. Some state-owned liquor monopolies' listing policies are so opaque that importers are never informed of why a listing has been denied.

Elimination of state-level non-tariff trade barriers is essential in order to achieve real market access for Canadian spirits. Canada's recent experience in negotiating CETA with the European Union, where provincial liquor board policies that discriminated in favour of domestic wines were front and centre, might provide a framework for addressing India's own discriminatory state measures.

Our recommendation in this regard is that full national treatment obligations be imposed on state-level alcohol policies and that any exemptions to this standard should be explicitly agreed to by the parties. It has to be spelled out.

Finally, Canadian spirits brand owners seek that within the text of the final agreement, India formally recognize and protect the terms “Canadian Whisky” and “Canadian Rye Whisky” as geographical indications of Canada. In major markets all over the world this is the nomenclature, and this is the recognition that Canadian whisky has and needs in order to protect its intellectual property. Such protection is essential in safeguarding industry foreign investment against our signature products.

In conclusion, we believe India offers a tremendous opportunity in trade for Canada, but we urge Canada to insist that real market access for spirits be part and parcel of any agreement.

Thank you for your attention.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

We'll open it up to questions and answers.

We'll start with Madame Papillon.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Thank you to our witnesses for their presentations.

Mr. Westcott, you told us that India may seek to exclude trade in beverage alcohol reform from the scope of the final agreement. Why do you think India is closed to that access?

Obviously India wants to protect its domestic market, but are there other reasons, in your opinion?

4:45 p.m.

C.J. Hélie Executive Vice-President, Spirits Canada / Association of Canadian Distillers

Allow me to answer that, if I may.

They say it is for cultural and religious reasons, but we believe it has more to do with protecting their domestic industry.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Your organization called on the federal government to reduce excise duties on the sale of spirits in the 2012 budget. Your request suggests that we need the reduction because Canadian manufacturers' profit margins lag well behind those of our main international competitors, such as the United Kingdom and the U.S. So the revenue generated by the domestic market is being used to develop new export markets needed to diversify international sales.

Did the government grant your request in the last federal budget?

4:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Spirits Canada / Association of Canadian Distillers

Jan Westcott

Not yet, but we remain optimistic. The essential issue for Canada is that virtually all of the beverage alcohol business worldwide today—it doesn't matter whether it's beer, wine, or spirits—is a global business.

The challenge in front of everybody is the Canadian part of that global business. We're unique in that we have a product called Canadian whisky that can't be made anywhere else. It's a very successful product and is one of the biggest-selling whiskies in the world. It's certainly one of the four mainstream recognized whiskies.

The problem becomes, if your margins are so low in this country versus those in the United States, where they make bourbon, or versus Britain or Scotland, where they make Scotch, or Ireland and its Irish whiskey that it's very difficult to persuade the parent companies, the global companies that have franchises in each one of those jurisdictions, to put those investment dollars in Canada. You have a dollar to spend and you're going to invest it where you get the most return.

Right now, Canada is far behind our counterparts in the United States. I'll pick a brand. Not to pick on any particular company, I'll pick a famous Canadian brand: Crown Royal. The people who own Crown Royal—Diageo, an international company—also own several bourbons in the United States. They own Johnnie Walker Scotch. They own....

Help me with the Irish....

4:45 p.m.

C.J. Helie

It's Black Bush.

4:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Spirits Canada / Association of Canadian Distillers

Jan Westcott

It's Black Bush, from Bushmills, in Ireland.

They're sitting there saying that they want to invest in their business, that they want to invest in plants and in upgrades, and in better technology. They want to innovate and they want new products. They're asking, “Where can we put that dollar that's going to give us the greatest return for our shareholders?” You're sitting there and, right off the bat, Canada doesn't come out very well.

It is a situation that needs to be addressed. It is a struggle to persuade people to bring those investments to Canada.

I think we'll get there. I remain very optimistic. I think the federal government is listening. We're not there yet, but we remain optimistic.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

That's great.

Mr. Bajaj, despite the tremendous opportunities India offers, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Canadian businesses are small and medium, given their limited size and resources. Penetrating a market like India's can be daunting.

What can we do, then, tangibly speaking, to help Canadian SMEs carve out a place in the Indian market?

4:50 p.m.

President, Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce

Naval Bajaj

I think that's a good question, because one of the things, as I mentioned in my remarks, is also that the chamber is more about the SMEs and the grassroots level.

One of the comments that I always make is that to really grow these trade relations.... We speak about all the big guns or the big companies, but we don't mobilize the SME sector. I think that in both parts, in Canada as well as India, as long as the SME sector does not understand or does not see the benefits, then it's going to be difficult to achieve the trade relations that we are trying to in trade and investment.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Do you have any specific tools in mind?

Are there tools very specific to this to help them?

4:50 p.m.

President, Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce

Naval Bajaj

I think that one of the things when the tools are specified.... That's one of the roles that our chamber takes. As I mentioned, we had a trade mission in January, and we'll be taking another trade mission. This is mostly.... When I say 50-plus, most of them are the SME industries.

When you go there, you see the market and you see the opportunities in the Indian market. That's where it starts kicking off for them, I think, as a place where we can do the investment and do trade. Taking them to the market, exposing them to the market, and having them see the market with a close-up eye rather than a faraway eye helps SMEs to make their decisions on trade and investment.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Are there specific services that could also be offered?

Are you thinking about certain services that could help enterprises?

4:50 p.m.

President, Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce

Naval Bajaj

I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question?

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Are you thinking about very specific services that Canada could give to the enterprises?

4:50 p.m.

President, Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce

Naval Bajaj

We all know that when it comes to—

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC

Maybe about the legal system or other issues...?

4:50 p.m.

President, Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce

Naval Bajaj

When we look at both countries, we see that they have their own expertise. When we speak about Canada, we speak about technology. We speak about education. We speak about the energy sector. When we speak about India, India is in need of.... When you speak about clean energy, that's where I think India is focusing, because India needs the energy sector.

At the same time, you see, when you're helping Canadian companies on the technology side, it's understandable that in India the same technology might be available at a cheaper price, but when it comes to the Canadian technology, it's of great quality. One of the things in the long run, I think, is that the companies in India also understand that if you take a Canadian technology and are implementing or using it, it's sustainable. You're looking at the long-term future.

For the SMEs, I think that it's knowing what the benefits can be—and this is specifically for the Indian businesses—and how they can take the advantage of some of the Canadian experts or Canadian expertise and use that in the Indian market. That directly helps the Canadian economy, because the Canadian sectors are getting the benefits of doing the business in the Indian market.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

Now we'll turn it over to our local expert on spirits on the government side.

Mr. Holder, the floor is yours.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

He's only a Scotch man.

4:55 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank our guests for being here.

I am a fan of a number of your products, Mr. Westcott. I certainly don't want to speak for colleagues opposite or even those on this side of the table, but I just hope that you've left some examples so that we can have a fuller appreciation of the product before you leave.

First, quickly, to Mr. Bajaj, how large is your organization here in Canada, please?

4:55 p.m.

President, Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce

Naval Bajaj

Our organization's coast-to-coast presence has close to more than 2,000 paid members and a database of more than 5,000 members.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

You mentioned that you felt a CEPA would be immensely beneficial. Very briefly, but very specifically, in what areas would you imagine that this agreement would be immensely beneficial?

November 29th, 2012 / 4:55 p.m.

President, Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce

Naval Bajaj

On CEPA, very briefly, as we spoke about, we need to grow the trade and investment between both countries. I think it's beneficial to both countries. In opening up the market, we speak about goods, we speak about services, and we speak about mobility. That's where the help is going to be coming, and I think that makes it more beneficial.