International Trade Committee on March 20th, 2013

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Your Excellency, for taking time to be with us here today.

I want to read you a passage from the U.S. Department of State notes from August 2012. This is how Peru is described:

Two decades of pro-growth macro-economic policy in Peru have yielded unprecedented economic expansion, low inflation, investment-grade status for the country’s debt, and a dramatic drop in poverty rates. Yet many challenges remain. More than a quarter of the population continues to live in poverty, illegal coca growth and cocaine production are on the rise, and social conflicts over natural resources and how to achieve socially inclusive and environmentally responsible growth pose serious challenges. Continued poverty reduction will remain critical to achieving socially inclusive and environmentally responsible growth.

While I congratulate your country on progress made, it sounds to me as though there are some significant challenges remaining.

Two questions come to my mind from this. Number one, over the last two decades, has the sharing of wealth in Peru gotten more equal in your country or has the wealth discrepancy become wider, as I think it has in Canada?

[José Antonio Raymundo Bellina Acevedo]

Thank you for your question.

I'd say there's been a big change in Peru since the fifties. Right now Peru is a middle-income country. It's not us saying that; it's the UN and the statistics.

Of course we have a lot to do. Almost 25% of the population lives in the highlands in the Andes. These are people who have lived there for thousands and thousands of years and they want to maintain their own way of life. If you go there and you have a western frame of mind and you say, “Look, these guys don't have power. They don't have water in this small hamlet of 1,000 or 2,000 people”. In the Andes zone in Peru, there are more than 22,000 hamlets of fewer than 1,000 people. How in a country like Peru are we going to have all these facilities? It will be very difficult. It will take a lot of time and cost a lot of money.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

I just want to focus on the question, because I have limited time. My question is about the way that wealth is shared. Has the share of wealth been distributed more equally in the country or has it gone in the opposite direction, in your view?

[José Antonio Raymundo Bellina Acevedo]

Yes, because the income of 60% of the population has increased, especially with the zones. That is why I remark that it's very difficult. We are talking about the highlands. We are talking about the coast of Peru, the big cities, the Amazonian forest. We are a country with very big differences.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I see.

[José Antonio Raymundo Bellina Acevedo]

Maybe the poor people will stay in the highlands of the Andes, this 25% that we talked about, the poor. But the government is focusing on those people right now. They have two goals: social inclusion and education.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Can I focus on the environment now? Because you raised it in climate change. One of my concerns is that you talked in the State Department about how achieving environmentally responsible growth posed serious challenges, not only for Peru but for Canada and I think for every country in the world.

How do you see the Pacific Alliance addressing the issue of raising environmental standards? We talk about trade and money and commerce and goods and services, but there are many of us, particularly on our side of the House, who view the environment as a critical component of the economy. In fact I say it is the economy. Without an environment, without our land, air, water, basic resources, we're not going to have economic opportunities. How do you see the Pacific Alliance addressing that? Do you see that being a subject of this deal, such that all the members of the Pacific Alliance will actually sign on to improve their environmental regulations?

[José Antonio Raymundo Bellina Acevedo]

Thank you for your question.

Usually the Latin American countries have a very common position regarding the environment, with few differences. In the case of Peru, Peru and Brazil share the Amazonian forest. Of course there are a lot of countries around it with a small portion, but the main Amazonian countries are Peru and Brazil. We have to keep this air of the world. Everybody always says it's the lungs of the world.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

It's the lungs of the planet.

[José Antonio Raymundo Bellina Acevedo]

It's very difficult especially for the new lungs with agricultural produce and so on. We also have the problem with the oil fields and the mining fields, though not in the case of Peru. In the case of Peru, the main problem is the illegal mining activities. There is no state control, and they start to use the rivers and cause problems.

The main thing here is that there are some countries like Canada, for example, or Australia, or New Zealand, that are going to share the goals with our countries. It's going to be much easier for us to achieve a better environmental framework.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Has the environment been the subject of discussions in the Pacific Alliance?

[José Antonio Raymundo Bellina Acevedo]

Yes, of course.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

In the discussions up to now? Is there a chapter?

[José Antonio Raymundo Bellina Acevedo]

Yes, they just had a discussion among the four countries because we want to share our experience. Colombia, Peru, Chile, Mexico, all four countries, have mining and oil fields. We have more or less the same legal frameworks, some stronger than others.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Can you tell us, Ambassador—because the Amazon is such an important part of not only South America but also as you said, the world's environment—is Peru in a positive or a negative direction in terms of protecting the Amazon forest? Could you give us a bit of insight into what's happening in Peru?

[José Antonio Raymundo Bellina Acevedo]

I think that in the last 10 years we have been doing much better than in the past because, for example, we have this law on prior consultation with the Amazonian inhabitants. It is going to decide if the development of mining, or an oil or gas project, will or will not be accepted. We are working on that. It is very hard for us. Sometimes it's difficult because there is more population around.

We are working well. For example, almost 35% of the Amazonian-Peruvian forest is protected. You cannot have any activities there. For example, in Madre de Dios, which is one of the biggest regions in Amazonia, there is a protected zone the size of Belgium. There is no destructive activity in this part of the country. We know that there is oil, gold, and many things, but by decision of the government, it is protected. It's the same in the north, close to Colombia, in the Pacaya-Samiria zone. It is a very, very large zone that is also protected.

We try to do our best. We know we can do much better, but we are doing better. We are working on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

That sounds very exciting. It sounds just like the greenest province in Canada, Alberta, and the national parks that we have there.

Mr. Cannan.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Your Excellency, for your appearance here today, along with your distinguished assistants, and giving our committee an opportunity to learn more about this very exciting Pacific Alliance.

We know that Canada will always have our biggest trading partner, the United States, but through our global commerce strategy, we're trying to expand our market share. We've had an agreement with Peru in 2009, including an environmental agreement and one looking at labour issues.

From our perspective, my personal perspective, I always look for a balance between the economy and the environment, and I think it's very important that they work together. They're not mutually exclusive, but inclusive, and can work together in harmony for a strong sustainable society.

I commend you and your partners for bringing this Pacific Alliance forward.

My first question is, would it be beneficial to Peru if Canada were to join the Pacific Alliance?

[José Antonio Raymundo Bellina Acevedo]

I am not an expert in economics and trade. I am a typical political diplomat, career diplomat, with some 35 years in this métier. I would like to say that the Pacific Alliance is Americas-oriented, affording a deep integration process in which trade and investment are not the only components of this scheme. In this case, political dialogue and co-operation are crucial elements as is the free mobility of persons within the member states.

Bearing in mind that Canada is a country located in the Americas, the decision to be a full member of the alliance may be also interpreted as a political decision in favour of becoming more involved in the hemisphere and Latin America, and to play a key role with countries that share the same values and principles that Canada defends, such as democracy and human rights.

For me—and right now I'm speaking in my own capacity—it's a challenge for Canada to be a member. Canada is going to decide, finally, I hope, that it is going to fully integrate in the Americas. The Pacific Alliance is the opening that provides more value to do that. That is my answer, sir.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

We've accomplished a lot of gains to date. Do you see more opportunities for both countries to expand our trade? You heard the earlier discussions about the World Trade Organization. It's moving forward like a herd of turtles, it's so slow. We need to make these bilateral and regional trade agreements.

We have a bilateral agreement with your country. It's moving forward. Do you see additional opportunities for both countries if we were to enter into this agreement?

[José Antonio Raymundo Bellina Acevedo]

Of course. Peru's also a member and works very hard in all organizations to promote trade, but we started to have a lot of problems regarding the differences in the policy approaches of other countries. My colleague from Colombia talked about the Andean countries, but last time two of the four countries changed their economic and trade policies. We are not going to stop. Colombia and Peru have to grow. That is why we decided to look for another kind of agreement, to move on.

Right now the progress and the possibilities of these four countries are very big. I think that Canada could be a very good partner in this process.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

We heard from the Colombian ambassador today and from Chilean ambassador on Monday. I know you work together and are also very competitive on the soccer pitch. There was a big FIFA game on Friday.

[José Antonio Raymundo Bellina Acevedo]

Yes, yes—here we are.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

That's the big news in your country, the soccer and the first Latin American Pope, so congratulations.

[José Antonio Raymundo Bellina Acevedo]

We spoke of the Pacific Alliance on Friday; don't worry about that.