Evidence of meeting #77 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tpp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Scott Sinclair  Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Richard Doyle  Executive Director, Dairy Farmers of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I call the meeting to order.

I thank our witnesses for being here.

We are embarking on a study on the benefits to Canada of the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement.

We have the department coming in on Wednesday. We have been interrupted; there have been a couple of false starts to this study, but nonetheless, today we're here. We have from the Dairy Farmers of Canada, Richard Doyle, the executive director. By video conference we have from the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, Scott Sinclair, senior research fellow.

Scott, can you hear us?

3:30 p.m.

Scott Sinclair Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Yes, I can.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Okay. You're coming through on this end as well.

Very good. We're all set to go.

We'll yield the floor to Mr. Doyle. The floor is yours, sir.

3:30 p.m.

Richard Doyle Executive Director, Dairy Farmers of Canada

Mr. Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to participate in the committee's study on the benefits to Canada of the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

The Dairy Farmers of Canada recognizes the importance of trade for this country and is on the record as supporting the government entering the talks based on the balanced trade negotiating position.

Our director of trade, Mr. Yves Leduc, who was originally scheduled to appear before this committee, is currently in Brussels, unfortunately—I don't know if it's fortunately or unfortunately, but he's in Brussels—following the CETA negotiations and I'll try to replace him and answer your questions, if I can.

The aim of the Canadian milk supply management system is to balance supply and demand, as well as balance market power among the supply chain stakeholders. Despite concentrating our effort on the domestic market, international trade talks are an important aspect when it comes to maintaining the integrity of the Canadian system in the future. Predictable imports are critical considering that dairy farmers discipline their production to ensure domestic demand is met without creating unnecessary surpluses.

Between 6% and 8% of our Canadian dairy consumption is supplied by imported dairy products coming in tariff-free, which makes Canada more generous than the U.S. or EU in terms of access. Predictability and import control are not equal to no imports. Dairy farmers are proud of the dairy sector's contribution to the Canadian economy, and we consider ourselves job sustainers, providing stability in the economy and supporting our rural communities.

It should also be noted that the Canadian dairy sector increased its number of Canadian jobs between 2009 and 2011. Dairy farmers are doing their part of the economic action plan to keep our economy strong and prosperous.

Essentially 100% of our dairy sales take place on the Canadian market. Exports only represent roughly 1% of Canada's milk production and export opportunities are virtually nil as a result of the negative decision in the late 1990s of the WTO panel on Canada's export policy. Any market opening, therefore, even if it were reciprocal, would come at the expense of Canadian dairy farmers.

Canada has negotiated 11 trade agreements with a number of negotiating partners over the past 20 years and has always maintained supply management for dairy and poultry. In other words, no concessions have been made with respect to TRQ expansion or over-quota tariff reduction. This is fully in line with the position defended by the Canadian government and which was clearly spelled out in the motion which was unanimously adopted in the House of Commons on November 22, 2005. The motion clearly states that Canada will accept no over-quota tariff reduction and no TRQ expansion for its supply-managed products as part of its balanced negotiating position in any trade discussions.

DFC would like to express its appreciation for the comments made by the Prime Minister, Minister Ritz, Minister Fast, and their parliamentary secretaries, who have consistently reiterated on a number of occasions that they will not make any concessions on supply management. We also very clearly want to acknowledge and appreciate the continued support of all parliamentarians for a system that is working well for Canada.

We've tabled with you a more detailed brief this afternoon, but I would like to address two issues with regard to the TPP trade talks.

First, negotiations like those on the TPP are often presented as being subject to no a priori exemptions. It is interesting to note, however, that domestic support in agriculture cannot be found on the negotiating agenda. Failing to discipline the use of such subsidies which can be very trade distorting goes against the principle of a no a priori exemption.

Second, I would like to mention that all countries, including New Zealand, Australia, and more particularly the United States, have a number of sensitive sectors. There are several examples outlined in our submission, but many more can be found. While we may be more up front about it, as Canadians, we don't have to be shy to defend what is in the best interests of Canadians and Canadian industries.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, Dairy Farmers of Canada is on record as supporting the Canadian government entering the TPP trade talks as part of the government's trade agenda that is based on the balanced trade negotiating position. For dairy farmers, this means that the government will continue to defend supply management both domestically and internationally, in line with the June 3rd, 2011, Throne Speech and the November 2005 House of Commons motion.

Consequently, Canada must not give any concessions in the TPP or any other trade negotiation that would in any way undermine the credibility of the Canadian negotiating position at the international level with respect to Canada's right to maintain supply management.

Thank you for your attention. I will be happy to respond to your questions.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much for your contribution.

We'll now turn to our video conference.

From Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, we have Mr. Sinclair. The floor is yours, sir.

3:35 p.m.

Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Scott Sinclair

Mr. Chair, I thank the committee for the invitation to participate.

Today's trade and investment treaty negotiations no longer deal exclusively, or even primarily, with trade matters. They are increasingly about putting new types of restrictions on how governments and societies are able to democratically regulate themselves. This is particularly true in the case of TPP negotiations with the U.S. and 10 other Pacific Rim nations, which Canada joined last year. It has been consciously sold as a next generation, 21st century trade and investment agreement that will delve into many behind-the-border regulatory matters. The agreement is designed to tie government's hands in many areas only peripherally related to trade, including patent protection for drugs, foreign investor rights, state-owned enterprises, local government purchasing, orderly agricultural marketing, cultural expression, and public interest regulation.

Canada already has trade and investment treaties with four other TPP members. It is in separate bilateral negotiations with Japan. The other six countries combined account for less than 1% of Canada's exports. With the exception of the Japanese market, there is limited trade expansion upside, yet there are very significant policy risks for Canada in this side of negotiations.

The TPP is primarily a U.S. driven and dominated project. From their perspective, it is a geopolitical exercise with a dual purpose: to construct a trade and investment bloc that reflects U.S. commercial interests and regulatory norms, and to counter the growing dominance of China in the Asia-Pacific region. The U.S. expects the TPP to curb China's influence by providing an advantage to U.S. commercial interests over Chinese competitors within the bloc, and ultimately the goal is to convince China to join the TPP on terms that compel Chinese reform in areas such as state-owned enterprises and currency manipulation. It is far from clear that the TPP will have the desired results in China. It will certainly enable the U.S. to apply intense pressure on other TPP members, including Canada, to accede to their ambitious regulatory demands.

A key problem with the agreement and the processes is that despite its potential to have serious implications on governments at all levels of the citizenry, the negotiations are excessively secretive. There are no opportunities for public scrutiny and debate of negotiating proposals and texts. The 26 draft chapters and other negotiating documents are stamped as classified for four years from entry into force of the TPP agreement, or if no agreement enters into force, four years from the close of the negotiation. Officials and private sector advisers must sign strict non-disclosure agreements. This extreme level of secrecy is unacceptable, especially when one considers that the TPP deals with regulatory matters that go to the heart of democratic decision-making in the public interest. Any agreement would restrict the policy options of future governments for generations.

There are precedents for greater transparency. The draft text of the free trade area of the Americas, FTAA, was publicly released in 2001. The WTO regularly publishes negotiating proposals and draft texts. It is critical that the TPP terms be subject to greater scrutiny by the public, outside experts, and legislators before they are agreed to and essentially set in stone by negotiators.

The rest of my remarks will focus on two important areas where some information has been leaked from inside the negotiations: first, the impact of TPP proposals on drug costs; and second, the investment protection chapter and investor-state arbitration.

The U.S. proposal for intellectual property in drugs has been leaked. It incorporates demands from the brand name industry for WTO-plus patent protection, including longer periods of data exclusivity, stronger patent linkage provisions, and significantly for Canada, patent term extensions, which would add to the term of the patent the time it takes for health regulators to give regulatory approval to a drug, up to a maximum of five years.

The U.S. has made these proposals for longer periods of patent protection conditional on a so-called access window. This would give brand name drug companies access to the stronger IP protections only if they stopped marketing approval for a drug in another TPP country within a certain as yet unspecified period of time, after first obtaining marketing approval in another country. But the access window is little more than window dressing. The proposed changes would invariably reduce the availability of cheaper generic medicines and drive up costs to consumers and governments.

Currently Canada does not have a system of patent term extension, although it is widely expected that the CETA will move us in this direction. The estimated cost of implementing a full system of patent term extension is around $2 billion annually. Containing rising drug costs is essential, and these U.S. demands could deal a further blow to the sustainability of Canada's universal health care system.

The U.S. has also proposed new rules that would undermine important drug cost containment policies, including price regulation and reimbursement levels. A proposed annex to the TPP transparency chapter would deal specifically with pharmaceutical and medical technologies. It includes procedural rights for drug companies to participate in the decision-making process for reimbursement, and substantive rights, which are quite vaguely worded but were based on prices as set, for example, by the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board on the value of the patent or market-based prices.

The potential impact of these transparency proposals, which I would be happy to discuss in further detail, including the costing facts, should be studied fully and debated widely.

I would like to turn now to investor-state arbitration. A draft text of the TPP investment chapter was leaked last year. It revealed a U.S.-style investment protection agreement modelled on NAFTA chapter 11 and U.S. bilateral investment treaties, BITs. Significantly, the chapter includes an investor-state arbitration mechanism.

Four investors have already used chapter 11 and BITs to challenge a wide range of government measures that allegedly diminished the value of their investments. Since most government regulations or polices affect property interests, NAFTA's investor-state rules and similar mechanisms have been strongly criticized for giving multinational corporations far too much power. Investors do not need to seek consent from their home governments and are not obliged to try to resolve complaints through the domestic court system before launching an investor-state claim. There has been a steady rise in the number of actions against Canada, particularly in the area of environmental protection. We are also witnessing the use of more aggressive arguments, such as in Eli Lilly's investor-state challenge to a Canadian court decision to deny patent protection on one of its drugs.

Agreeing to investor-state arbitration in the TPP will greatly expand the pool of foreign investors who have the right to invoke the severely flawed mechanism. The leaked investment text notes that Australia is refusing to be bound by this mechanism. Australia adopted this position in 2011 after a thorough independent review of the costs and benefits of investor-state arbitration. Such a review is long overdue in Canada and until one is completed, Canada would be wise to follow Australia's example.

There was also a growing problem of incoherence in the various investment protection treaties that Canada is negotiating. For example, in the Canada-EU agreement, Canada is under pressure to agree to stronger investment protection rights in certain areas, such as minimum standards of treatment. NAFTA's most-favoured-nation provisions require that all protections given to the European investors be extended to investors from the U.S. and Mexico. As a result, these investors will be able to mix and match investor rights from NAFTA chapter 11 and the CETA to construct the most favourable challenge. This problem of treaty shopping will only worsen under the TPP.

To close, the astonishing range of matters being negotiated within the TPP underlines how far this process has strayed from bread-and-butter trade issues. New disciplines on state enterprises, ostensibly aimed at China, could impact CBC and Canada Post. Both the U.S. and New Zealand are insisting on significant access to Canada's dairy market, as we've heard, which would threaten the viability of supply management. As you will hear from other witness, TPP treaty commitments to the free flow of commercial information may undermine domestic privacy policies. The U.S. has never accepted the legitimacy of Canada's cultural exemption in trade treaties, and this will be up for grabs once again. The list goes on, and may well include new issues and matters that are net yet public knowledge.

The role of Parliament in examining this treaty and how it may affect Canadian interests is critical. There needs to be a much fuller discussion of the range of potential costs and benefits, but meaningful discussions and debate are hampered by the unprecedented level of secrecy and the difficulty in obtaining proposals and negotiating texts.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you.

We'll now move to questions and answers.

We will start with Mr. Davies. The floor is yours. You have seven minutes.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to both witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Doyle, have the Canadian dairy farmers been asked by DFAIT or the minister's office for their input? Have they been consulted about the TPP to date?

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Dairy Farmers of Canada

Richard Doyle

Yes, an intersectoral committee has been formed for consultation purposes. Mr. Leduc is a representative. This is a confidential advisory committee.

I think the problem with the TPP is that we don't have access to any documents. This is true for all negotiations, as Mr. Sinclair was saying. That's one of the issues; whether you are on that committee or other ones, you have no access to documents.

We are briefed regularly.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Sorry, continue on. I interrupted you. You are briefed by whom?

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Dairy Farmers of Canada

Richard Doyle

We are briefed by the negotiator, Kirsten Hillman, on a regular basis.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

The government's negotiator?

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Dairy Farmers of Canada

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Who set up the confidential committee you just referred to?

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Dairy Farmers of Canada

Richard Doyle

The department, DFAIT.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Did you have to sign a confidentiality agreement, Mr. Doyle?

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Dairy Farmers of Canada

Richard Doyle

The person on it did, yes.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Sinclair, has the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives been consulted about the TPP?

3:45 p.m.

Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Scott Sinclair

By DFAIT? No, not to my knowledge. There was a request for comments which was in the Gazette and open to everyone, but no, we haven't been expressly consulted.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Sinclair, have you received any briefings from the negotiator about TPP?

3:45 p.m.

Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Scott Sinclair

No, we haven't.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

I want to move to the beginning, and those are the conditions for Canada to enter the TPP talks. As we know, Canada entered late. I believe some nine rounds of negotiations had been completed prior to Canada entering.

Mr. Sinclair, you have written a little about this. I understand the U.S. trade representative set out the conditions for entry in a letter to both Canada and Mexico. What can you tell us about the terms of entry, as you understand them, for Canada to enter the TPP talks?

3:45 p.m.

Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Scott Sinclair

As far as I know, the terms of entry letter was never published, but it was widely reported in a U.S. trade publication. The terms of entry for Canada and Mexico were similar and in my view quite unprecedented.

Basically, as a condition of being admitted, Canada and Mexico agreed not to reopen any text that had already been agreed to by the then nine TPP members. At that time only three of the 26 chapters had been closed. But according to the U.S. trade representative this commitment extends not just to completed chapters but to any unbracketed or agreed text in all the rest of the chapters.

I am not familiar with any country ever agreeing to a condition like that in any trade agreement. It's a principle of trade agreements that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

Just to close, Japan was recently admitted to the talks, and there have been no reports of any such conditions being placed on it as a condition of entry.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Sinclair, I understand that from the time the Canadian government was accepted into talks there was a 90-day consultation process in the U.S. Congress before Canada was formally admitted, during which time there were two further negotiating sessions. Some have expressed concern that the time period from the ninth negotiating session to the twelfth, when Canada was going to formally enter, gave the original nine countries the opportunity to reach consensus on areas where they knew Canada had sensitivities, for instance, on agriculture, market access, drug prices, cultural industries, and copyright protection. It gave them an opportunity to close off text in advance, knowing that Canada was about to enter.

Have you heard any concerns in that regard?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Research Fellow, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Scott Sinclair

I haven't heard any inside reports. You're quite right, though, that there was a 90-day consultation period before Canada joined, and they didn't join until the end of the second round. I'm not privy to what may or may not have been agreed to during those two rounds.

During that period, Canada did not have access to the negotiating text. Now the same condition has been imposed on Japan. It does not have full access to a negotiating text until it joins the negotiations at the next round. There has been some flexible scheduling of the next round to enable Japan to participate. Again, that did not occur in the case of Canada.