International Trade Committee on May 27th, 2013

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you.

My next question is for the Dairy Farmers of Canada. Richard, on this text business and being on the sectoral committee, you said that being on that sectoral committee may be lacking a bit. I would say, and let's be honest, without the text in terms of the sectoral committees, setting up the committee on the part of the government is absolutely nothing short of a farce. That's all it is. They just want to use the number to say that we're meeting with people. If commodity groups and organizations don't have the text, then the whole thing, in my view, is nothing but a farce.

That's where I sit, because here's the thing: you have somebody on the committee who signs a declaration of confidentiality, has no access to the text, and is maybe or maybe not briefed on the text, but because of the confidentiality agreement, he or she can't go to the board of directors and tell the board of directors what we're talking about. How can that person represent the group on the sectoral committee? He or she can't tell anybody, and doesn't even know if they're dealing with the issues that are in the text.

I mean, that's just absolutely nothing but a farce. Let's call it what it is.

I don't know if you have a comment or not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Do you have a question?

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

No, I'm just laying out the facts, Mr. Chair, because those are the facts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Well, those are the facts from your perspective.

Mr. Doyle, if there's a comment that you'd like to add, go ahead.

[Richard Doyle]

I'll just say that consultation is a two-way process. As an industry representative, we want to have the ability to explain our situation and make sure that the negotiators are fully aware of what's on the table.

I reiterate my comment that I think the lack of access to the text is what makes most of the industries, including the experts, very nervous about a negotiation where you aren't able to do a proper analysis of what is on the table. You rely solely on basically what you're being told by the negotiators and by the people who are on these committees, who cannot reflect necessarily what information they receive but who give you confidence that what is on the table is either having an impact or not on your industry.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

The problem is, Richard, that they can't talk to the very representatives of the industry that they're supposed to be representing in the negotiation. My point still stands.

You mentioned, Mr. Doyle, that more access is allowed into Canada for dairy products versus access we have into Europe or the United States, but that's not well known. In fact, I mentioned it to some people this morning, and they were shocked, because Canada is seen as protectionist. We are more open on dairy access than these other countries. We've somehow lost the messaging fight.

The USTR is clearly using the TPP to try to break our system. The USTR publication on foreign trade barriers said, “supply management...severely limits the ability of United States producers to increase exports”. The Congressional Research Service said, “...to tackle outstanding non-tariff measures that have limited, and could further restrict, access for U.S. fluid milk...and cheese into Canada's market”.

Could you expand a little on what we do versus what they do? That information has to get out there. We're an open market even though we—

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

I'd like you to expand very little, because the time has gone.

Go ahead.

[Richard Doyle]

Very quickly, I think the U.S. is talking out of both sides of its mouth, to be quite frank. On the one hand they're saying that they don't want to reopen the free trade agreements they have with most of the partners in the TPP, but they do want to have access for dairy in Canada, and they do not want to have any access for New Zealand dairy products, which they claim to be very trade distorting. They don't want to reopen FTAs on sugar with Australia because they want to respect all FTAs they have, but they want to reopen the NAFTA, or the CUSTA, as we call it, with Canada on dairy.

I think it's unclear at this stage as to what is exactly the position. I think everybody's talking and listening to these consultations, which are public, but they are not talking at all about what the negotiators are actually offering on the table. We don't know that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Shipley, you have seven minutes.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

Maybe I am a little closer to the dairy industry than some of the others here. One of the things I find interesting is that when you talk about.... We've always been criticizing Canada because of the pricing. I'll use the context of $1.45 a litre for milk, whereas in New Zealand, where they've opened it up and taken it away, it's actually $1.65 a litre. In Australia, it's $1.55. In the United States, they have so many subsidies attached that it's hard to trigger down, but actually, across the board, the price per litre of milk is more than it is in Canada.

On turkeys, for example, we always hear about the cheap turkeys you can buy because of the lack of supply management in the States. Canada's price is actually $2.97 a kilogram and in the States it's $3.26. That's over a 13-year average.

Mr. Doyle, in terms of Canada's position, with the 11 trade agreements you referenced that are in place, have you been satisfied with the outcome, the end result of those agreements in terms of your producer organizations?

[Richard Doyle]

Yes. As I said before, supply management both for poultry and for dairy have been respected in terms of our TRQ and access.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

You mentioned that you talk to the negotiators. I'm trying to get a sense from you in your significant position if there is any waning of responsibility of the government toward supply management.

[Richard Doyle]

I'm sorry. I missed that.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Are you getting any sense in the discussions you've have had with negotiators that in terms of the responsibility of the government we're moving away from the support of supply management?

[Richard Doyle]

No.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

This discussion has come up across the way a little bit, and you've mentioned the concern about not having the details. Can you tell me about other member states that actually do agreements and that are getting the details of the talks?

[Richard Doyle]

It's a little different. In the discussions we have on bilateral, whether it's with Chile or other countries, or even the WTO, for example, the texts are much more readily available. We know where the square brackets are. We know what the issues are. Everybody can more or less look at the text and have input into it.

Maybe that's the problem with the WTO in the end, but it's a little more accessible in terms of what is on the table being negotiated.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

In the TPP, then, is it your sense that just Canada doesn't have access to the details, or is it all member states?

[Richard Doyle]

No, Canada has access to the information, but all member states have agreed that they will not give access to any of the information outside the negotiating room.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

One thing that was brought up I wasn't surprised about, but I think many.... In fact I'm glad my colleague across the way brought it up. It's about production in terms of supply management in Canada. We use domestically what we produce. I think you said we export outside of 1%.

You can be assured that the consumers and the academics out there do not, or choose not to, recognize that actually we import 6% to 8%. So it isn't that supply management is a closed system.

In many of the countries, Mr. Doyle, on a percentage basis or on a population basis, do we allow imports to the same extent that other countries do, and yet we're limited to the amount of exports we do? Is there any kind of an answer for that, particularly with our southern friends?

[Richard Doyle]

I know that the European Union does not provide as much access as Canada on dairy, and the same in the United States. I couldn't give you the list of all the countries. Europe is negotiating as a union, so the numbers are only available there.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I wish we could get the message out more. It's a difficult one, because it's a bit like other situations we may be in where the closed discussion can't seem to get the truth out about what supply management actually does, that not only is it good for the consumer but it is also good for the economy and other businesses.

Mr. Sinclair, after your discussion, what would be your take on the chances of success for the TPP?

[Scott Sinclair]

I think this will be a difficult negotiation to conclude, particularly as the number of countries involved expand. The United States has some very ambitious, aggressive demands, but at the same time it's very protective of its own sensitivities in many areas. I could see that in, for example, their proposals on intellectual property rights and drug pricing where they've carved out Medicaid and other things.

Another factor is that there are actually parallel negotiations for regional economic integration in the Asia-Pacific region that don't involve the United States but involve China and many of the other partners. By all reports these are much more flexible and sensitive or open to various domestic sensitivities that the countries involved have. So there's an alternative that people can move to if they feel they're being shaken down too much by the United States.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

My time is up, so I'll thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Morin, the floor is yours.