Evidence of meeting #16 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tpp.
3:35 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Has Ballard Power received government money or government grants or subsidies at all?
3:35 p.m.
Vice-President, Business and Corporate Development, Ballard Power Systems Inc.
We partner with Sustainable Development Technology Canada, SDTC. It supports some of our product development efforts, but beyond that, no, we don't.
3:35 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Calvert, first of all, I want to go on the record as saying that I and the New Democrats have publicly stated that we believe the full text of the trade agreement should be published for Canadians to look at and to have public comment on before it is signed off, so that we can actually get full stakeholder and Canadian input. That is an excellent suggestion on your part.
I want to ask you if you have any concerns that provisions in TPP or any of the so-called 21st-century trade agreements may impair our ability to expand our medicare system, for instance, to bring in a national pharmacare program.
3:35 p.m.
Associate Professor, Health Sciences, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
One of the issues that is apparently being discussed and potentially could arise under the new TPP is the possibility that there could be restrictions on the formularies that, in our case, the provinces have. As you know, in the U.S., under Medicare Part D, they're not allowed to use their bulk purchasing to actually negotiate lower prices with the drug industry. That is U.S. practice, and I think they are trying to incorporate something somewhat similar into the TPP, which would mean some significant restrictions for us in terms of essentially getting a better deal on behalf of patients. That is certainly one area that is quite important.
Remind me of the second part of your question.
3:40 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
It was whether or not there is anything in these trade agreements that might impair the expansion of medicare to include things like pharmacare or dental care.
3:40 p.m.
Associate Professor, Health Sciences, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
The cost item is a major one. As I said in my presentation, just on pharmaceuticals, we're now spending at total of $27.7 billion and they are now the second largest component of our total health spending. That amount has gone up quite dramatically over the last 25 years. Cost is certainly going to be a major concern for governments looking at a national pharmacare program. Pushing up the costs further, which I think the TPP will do, is going to make it even more difficult to afford a national pharmacare program.
3:40 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Okay.
I'm interested in exploring the connection between intellectual property laws and research and development. The assertion is often made by the innovators that if we give them longer patent protection, there will be more R and D in our jurisdictions. Can you comment on that assertion?
3:40 p.m.
Associate Professor, Health Sciences, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Well, there's a long history here. Going back to 1969, we passed legislation providing compulsory licensing for Canadians, and that system applied until basically 1987. During that period, the role of drug costs in our total health care budget was effectively controlled and indeed went down.
After 1987, through Bill C-22 and then subsequently Bill C-91, we got rid of our compulsory licensing. The industry promised as a result that if they got extra patent protection, they would invest more in Canada. The target, as I said in my presentation, was 10%. They only did that for a few years. Now we're down to 6%.
The problem is that once we change our patent laws, they are locked in, particularly if they're locked in by this trade agreement or the CETA. But on the other side, there's no quid pro quo. There are some promises, but if they're not lived up to—and they haven't been lived up to—there's really nothing we can do.
They were supposed to minimally provide at least 10% of their revenue in R and D. It has not happened. There is no sign that giving them more patent protection will do anything more. So don't we learn from this experience? If we just give them more, with no obligation on their part to actually deliver anything, what's the benefit to Canadians?
3:40 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
In terms of generic medicine and medicine delivered to the developing world, do you have any concerns that there are provisions in the TPP that may inhibit or impair our ability to deliver generic medicine both at home and to the developing world?
3:40 p.m.
Associate Professor, Health Sciences, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
There are several provisions, but the one that I think is most troubling, I guess from an ethical point of view, is the extension of data exclusivity. This basically means that a generic company doesn't have access to the information, the clinical trials, on which a drug that's coming off patent was originally patented for....
Without that information being made available relatively quickly, they're forced either not to produce a generic version of the drug, or to subject people again to clinical trials for a drug that we already know works. To give people placebos when you know that they actually need the drug seems to me rather unethical. The longer you have this arrangement where they have to wait, the longer, obviously, it's going to take for generics to get on the market, and the more costly it is for those countries.
This is a big barrier that, as the TPP is implemented, will be raised as a result of what is being proposed.
3:40 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In terms of R and D, you've already said, if I heard you correctly, that approximately half of R and D money is actually supplied by the taxpayer in Canada.
3:40 p.m.
Associate Professor, Health Sciences, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Yes, just under half.
3:40 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
What percentage of that money is spent by the pharmaceutical companies on marketing?
3:40 p.m.
Associate Professor, Health Sciences, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but it's the largest component, as I recall. Basic scientific research is a relatively small component. Developing marketing and also doing some clinical trials are the other major elements, so we're not getting much scientific research. I guess that's the bottom line.
3:40 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Can you give us one suggestion for something you'd like to see in the trade agreement?
3:40 p.m.
Associate Professor, Health Sciences, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Well, a commitment to nothing beyond TRIPS.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I'd like to thank our guests for being here today.
Dr. Calvert, what I really appreciate about you as I read your biography is that you did your undergrad degree and your first post-grad degree in the tenth-largest city in Canada, London, Ontario. I'm pleased to say, as the representative for London West, that obviously that education has suited you well.
I have to say that when you consider the intellectual repartee that's going on here.... I rest my case, Chair. My degree was in philosophy, so all I could do was sell insurance. That's all I'll tell you.
3:40 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
You made some references that I just want to make sure I understand, Dr. Calvert.
Under biologics, you talked about universal public drug coverage. We don't really have that in Canada, do we? We have group insurance plans—my background was actually in employee benefits—and of course, if you're in a certain circumstance in various provinces, then you'll get it, but we don't have a universal public drug plan in Canada.
There may be parties opposite that have that as a thought. I don't think it's our thought as the government—it's certainly not mine—but I'm wondering if you can help me to understand where you think that's coming into play as it relates to the issues of the TPP.
