International Trade Committee on April 18th, 2016

[David Crawford]

Yes. Understood.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I know the previous government did a fair bit of work in terms of Going Global workshops and others. How much has that come down to the ground level? That's one question.

The other one is that you've mentioned companies with less than 50 employees. When we're looking at companies that have anywhere between five to 20 employees that would like to be exporting, how is it best to suit the needs of the employer, who is also the owner, the operator, the accountant sometimes, and every role going, to best get them prepared for trade?

[David Crawford]

To answer your first question, what really happens when you look at Export Development Canada or other programs that are delivered is you bump into a capacity problem with small businesses, whether that's at 10, 25, or 30; it's dependent on the industry. But you're right, there's often a privately held business with one or two owners, and they're chief cook, and bottle-washer.

When we did an environmental scan, because we have the luxury of location when exporting to Asia, we found the same thing with our members. When we look at export documents that we're processing, there are very few very small businesses, and what they're exporting are really single transactions. When we stumbled, effectively, on the trade accelerator program, the question is being posed back to the small-business owner: how can we help you? It's not here's what we offer. The orientation of it is different, by customizing the delivery. Not everybody goes into that program and comes out the other end as successful, or they stop because they realize there is no export market. It's that filter to stop people wasting their time.

I'm sure if you contact the Toronto Region Board of Trade, they will tell you that it is quite focused on specific sectors where they have world-class expertise and a large number of small businesses that are feeding into a cluster, like financial services. There are some others where you have some very large ones, and then you have almost micro-businesses that are there as well. I think that's the magic of that program. It's custom tailored and targeted, and it's user friendly as opposed to prescriptive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Time's up.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Is that it? I think you're cutting my clock off.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

I know members always feel you don't have enough time, but my faithful scorekeeper here has it all written down.

Just before we go to our next questioner, let me ask Mrs. Sayers this. When you mention the words “traditional lands”, I'm assuming you mean waters also. We're on the east coast. This is the big picture: “lands and waters”. That's just for clarification.

[Brenda Sayers]

You're right; it's lands and waters. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Mr. Dhaliwal for five minutes.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks to the panel members.

My first question is going to go to Madam Sayers, as well. Madam Sayers, you mentioned indigenous peoples' working relationship in partnership with the government, and I'm sure you realize we are starting to work together as equal partners, and correcting the mentality that has been in place for many generations, whether it's with energy projects, trade agreements, or with the government. The first thing was calling an inquiry into missing indigenous women, putting $8.4 billion for infrastructure and community development into indigenous communities, and seeking your advice when it comes to trade agreements, whether it's with the Prime Minister, the minister, or us at the committee. The Prime Minister has given the committee an independent mandate to go out and have public consultations, and that's why you are here at this table.

My question to you is this: in the TPP, is there any section that you feel is beneficial to first nations peoples?

[Brenda Sayers]

You know, I haven't studied it in that length to give you an accurate answer. I could get back to you with that answer, if that is okay with you, Mr. Dhaliwal.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Do you have any recommendations that you would like to put forward here to the committee, and through this committee to the Minister of International Trade?

[Brenda Sayers]

What I would say, and one of our concerns, is that international law trumps domestic law. International law, when it goes to the three-panel secret tribunal, will not recognize indigenous rights and title, our treaty rights. It will not recognize federal, provincial, or municipal regulations. On top of that, the foreign state can sue Canada or the province through domestic courts for stopping it from extracting natural resources from the traditional lands. Now we're getting hit from both sides.

I'm not sure whether that answers your question.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

I want to give you the open time and stage here so that you feel you were given a fair chance to put your thoughts on the table. I give my minutes to you here to express those opinions and any suggestions you might have, so that you feel that you are consulted.

[Brenda Sayers]

I do have a suggestion. First of all, I would like to make note that we do not consider this consultation.

The other thing I would like to suggest is that first nations have the right to know what is contained in the TPP. I think Canada will admit itself that we're coming into this deal late.

What we would expect the government to do is have an open dialogue with us and inform first nations on the full impact TPP will have on our rights and title. After all, the document is 600 pages long and has a lot of text in it that the layperson cannot understand. This is one of the expectations we would have of the government of the day.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

My question to the other panellists is this. When it comes to the supply management section, there's a five-year phase-out period. Do you feel that is enough time for our dairy products and supply management products to become competitive on the international stage?

[Kevin Boon]

I'll comment briefly on that.

I can't really give you an answer on what effect it's going to have. The one thing I can say about the dairy industry is that 20% of our beef comes from dairy cows once they're retired from producing milk. There is a definite advantage to that hitting the market, in that aspect. I think there are other opportunities that could open up, too, but I really can't, not being involved in it, fairly comment for them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you.

Ms. Sayers, you mentioned 600 pages. I don't want to shock you, but it's 6,000 pages. It's even bigger than that.

[Brenda Sayers]

Thank you for pointing that out.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

We're going to go now to the Conservatives for five minutes.

Mr. Ritz, go ahead.

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, presenters. These are all very interesting discussions here today.

I'll start with you, Kevin. You talked about beef and the importance of it in British Columbia. You're absolutely right, but the one thing that has always struck me is that even though our animal numbers were down across the country with BSE and country-of-origin labelling, our tonnage was actually up. Our genetics are so much better that we're actually growing fewer cows but producing more beef to be consumed here or exported. It's a great thing; it's why our genetics are in such demand around the world as well. That's one of the major exports that we have available to us.

British Columbia is the perfect storm when it comes to animals. You need three things: grass, water, and access to market. Certainly, grass and water are here in abundance. Access to market we're trying to accomplish now with access back into the U.S., with country-of-origin labelling done.

We need diversity, however. You made the point about all the other cuts and offal and everything else that's in demand in the Pacific Rim that is so important to gain that diversity in your industry. We've also developed a beef centre of excellence in Calgary, so that when butchers and marketers from all of these other countries decide.... As I often say, we develop a 16-ounce T-bone here in Canada, but that will feed a village in Japan: they want a two-ounce cut, and so on. That's what this is doing.

Are you seeing response from all of those different initiatives that have been taken, in the demand?

[Kevin Boon]

I certainly have. One of the things I think we have really concentrated on is cutability, and making the best use out of a carcass. That entails getting the right trading partner for it. The trading partners are right here in Canada, as well.

One of our big setbacks here in B.C. is being able to service them because we have no federal plant. In terms of carcass size, we need the ability to process here in Canada, to utilize the knife correctly, and to develop new cuts for specific markets.

You referred to the centre of excellence. It represents huge opportunity for us to bring in the other markets and trading partners, and to work with them to determine what process needs to be here.

We know that with the amount of waste—and we get about a 60% cutability out of every carcass—it's not feasible to ship live cattle anywhere else but the U.S. unless it is being sold for genetics. That puts us in jeopardy. Processing, packing, the whole ball of wax all fits into the trade.

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

I've been on the ground in some markets, such as Vietnam, which is really developing, and some of the major cuts that are in demand there are stomachs and tongues. They probably don't have it on the menu here at the hotel, but certainly that adds value to the carcass, and that's the whole point. The pork guys are famous for saying they sell everything but the squeal, and we've started to drive that with a lot of our extra production.

You're absolutely right. You made the point that there aren't any federal facilities here in British Columbia, and it's hard to add value and get outside the scope of a captive consumer unless you have that ability.

I know that CETA isn't really going to help much here, given our geographic location, but do you see TPP developing a feeding industry and a processing industry here in British Columbia that has been missing to this point?

[Kevin Boon]

Absolutely we do. We've already started taking some steps towards seeing this by doing a viability study. Our cattle industry is virtually moving north in the province. Population is pushing us to the north, to the Prince George-Vanderhoof area and up to the Peace. The ability to raise grain there.... We know that the closer we have our finished product to a processing plant, the less the transportation, and the greener it becomes, the more economical.

Having a processing plant would not only see us create jobs in a small to medium-sized plant for that processing, but we would also see infrastructure grow in other types of production of the beef, in the finishing end of things, here in B.C.

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Crawford, speaking to your points concerning the Greater Vancouver Board of Trade, I am aware that they signed a non-disclosure clause as this was being developed. There were dozens of different groups like yours—industries, and so on—that did so. They were briefed on a day-by-day, week-by-week basis as to how this was progressing, and I know they took advantage of it.

You talk about your small businesses being in the five- to 10-employee range. One of the smaller operations that I've had the chance to visit here in Richmond is Lulu Island Winery, a huge success story. They've now expanded. They have their footprint here and they're growing specific wines for trade in the Pacific Rim. Now they've bought a second operation in Kelowna to expand. They're doing it somewhat backwards from what everybody else does.

But wine tourism has become a big thing in British Columbia. Do you see that—?

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

I'm sorry, Mr. Ritz, your time is up. Your partner there is going to have five minutes, and maybe he can finish up your questioning and will work on that.

We're going to have to move over to the Liberals for five minutes.

Mr. Peterson, you have the floor.