Evidence of meeting #11 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rich Smith  Executive Director, Alberta Beef Producers
Bryan Walton  General Manager, National Cattle Feeders' Association
John Weekes  Trade Consultant, National Cattle Feeders' Association
Doug Robertson  President, Western Barley Growers Association
Gil McGowan  President, Alberta Federation of Labour
Sandra Azocar  Executive Director, Friends of Medicare
Matthew Young  Member, Prairies and Northwest Territories, The Council of Canadians
Janelle Whitley  Manager, Policy Development, Canadian Canola Growers Association, Alberta Canola Producers Commission
Greg Sears  Chair, Alberta Canola Producers Commission
D'Arcy Hilgartner  Vice-Chair, Alberta Pulse Growers Commission
Leanne Fischbuch  Executive Director, Alberta Pulse Growers Commission
Kevin Bender  Vice-Chairman, Alberta Wheat Commission
Caalen Covey  Manager, Business Development and Markets, Alberta Wheat Commission
Erna M. Ference  Chair, Alberta Chicken Producers
Tim McMillan  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
Allistair Elliott  International Representative, Canada, Canadian Federation of Musicians

10:20 a.m.

Sandra Azocar Executive Director, Friends of Medicare

Thank you.

Good morning, Mr. Chair and committee members. Thank you for allowing us to take part in this very important discussion.

Since 1979, Friends of Medicare have been advocating for an improved and expanded universal health care system here in Alberta and nationally with our partners in the Canadian Health Coalition.

We believe the TPP limits Canadians' ability to find democratic and public solutions to ongoing health care issues, most notably on pharmaceutical costs. The intellectual property provisions for pharmaceutical companies fundamentally subvert the health systems and policies and the role of government in countries with public health care systems like Canada's.

The ability of drug companies to maintain the high prices seen in the United States will be expanded to other countries with public health care systems. By preventing the ability of governments to bulk-buy drugs, the TPP significantly impedes the ability of governments to manage costs. For example, Lipitor costs a Canadian $800 per year, but it's only $15 per year in New Zealand, where bulk purchases and price negotiations have dramatically lowered the price.

Based on estimates of similar provisions in CETA, the patent term extension for time spent in the regulatory approval period will cost Canadians an additional $850 million to $1.6 billion in drug costs. Estimates of the additional effect of the TPP amount to $636 million annually, or a 5% increase in the cost of patent drugs.

From 2007 to 2013, partially as a result of many patents expiring, Canada's spending on drugs slowed considerably. Consider the experience of Ontario's spending on Lipitor. In 2009-10 this single product cost Ontario $360 million. Once the patent expired and generics were available, the cost dropped in 2010-11 to $133 million.

Depending on whether the TPP or a very similar CETA is ratified first, drug costs are expected to rise between 5% to 12.9%, starting in 2023. There is little evidence that this will increase innovation and spending on R and D. Though patent rights have been strengthened and expanded through a variety of free trade agreements over the past decade, the ratio of R and D spending to sales has fallen to 5%, well below the target of 10% and the lowest rate since 1988 when this data started to be recorded.

The investment settlement dispute provisions also tie the government's hands in regard to making any regulations to protect or promote the health of Canadians if that might result in the loss of profit for or in interference with the business of mega-multinational companies. For example, corporations might now attempt to challenge drug safety processes and policies.

A recent example is that of Eli Lilly issuing a $500-million U.S. NAFTA challenge after they failed at the Supreme Court of Canada level to overturn court decisions invalidating drug patents. Eli Lilly claimed these court decisions invalidating patents pursuant to principles of intellectual property law violated chapter 11 of NAFTA. In other words, by turning to the investor arbitration provisions of NAFTA, we're now at risk of having foreign corporate-chosen arbitrators overrule our own Supreme Court.

Aside from the $500-million tab we may now have to pay for enforcing our own laws, this case might also have a chilling effect on the ability of other pharmaceutical research institutes, manufacturers, and companies in their attempt to challenge patent and exclusivity rights that may not meet the standards of existing intellectual property law.

With every trade deal there will always be winners and losers, but in this case, the losers will be Canadians who rely on health care and prescription drugs. Already, Canada has the fourth-highest per capita drug costs in the OECD and is the only OECD country with single-payer health care that does not include drug coverage. Nearly a quarter of all Canadians are unable to fill their prescriptions and follow their treatment plans because of the high cost of drugs. Only eight years ago, that number was 10%, meaning the problem is already exploding without the devastating effect of the TPP.

Ninety-one per cent of Canadians support a national pharmacare program, and many of the provisions of the TPP will prevent any current or future government from being able to implement one. Almost half of all Canadians are worried about their ability to pay for medically necessary drugs or treatments.

Over 50 years ago, at the birth of medicare, we made a pledge as a nation that no Canadian would ever go without health care because they couldn't afford it. The TPP puts this principle at risk. We hope our presentation better informs our government decision-making.

Thank you.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, and thanks for being on time and being concise with your submission.

We're going to move to the Council of Canadians now, with Matthew Young.

Our agenda says that you're a member for the Prairies and the Northwest Territories.

10:25 a.m.

Matthew Young Member, Prairies and Northwest Territories, The Council of Canadians

That's correct.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Welcome, and for five minutes, go ahead, sir.

10:25 a.m.

Member, Prairies and Northwest Territories, The Council of Canadians

Matthew Young

Thank you. I am Matthew Young, a member of the Council of Canadians.

I saw and heard a lot while fighting in Afghanistan. There was a distinct difference between the reality I saw and what the public was hearing, much like with the trans-Pacific partnership. When I went back to university, I was working three days a week selling insurance and mutual funds. That was during the 2008 financial crisis. I recall the story of a certain investment bank selling garbage investments to the public pension funds and betting against them. As an auditor, I have seen fraud ignored and illegal activity undisclosed. I learned that money changes people's perspective. It's kind of how the Sarbanes-Oxley Act started with good intentions but was weakened by lobbies when it threatened the profit and security investors enjoy.

I recall, while running the back office of a $10 billion pension fund, the United States threatened punishing taxes on the assets of the Canadian public so that it could get the information it needed to tax American pensioners, while doing little about tax havens.

I'm not here as a soldier, an auditor, or a salesman. I am here as a concerned citizen. I am here to make you aware of the offence to Canadian sovereignty and our rights in the political economy. The TPP is a deal for investors. That's where the money goes. The ultimate issue at stake here is the balance between public protection and private profit. Imbalance in power and access to government has allowed the interests of investors to pervert the outcomes of Canada's laws and our agreements with foreign countries. Thus the outcomes of globalization have benefited few, harmed many, and done little or nothing to resolve trade conflicts.

If the TPP were expected to resolve trade conflicts, I suppose the Prime Minister would not have publicly asked the Minister of International Trade to focus on resolving the softwood lumber dispute earlier this year. It was negotiated behind closed doors. Most MPs were alienated from the process. Strong corporate lobbying engagement was allowed, and there was minimal access for civil society. One result is the investor-state dispute settlement, which allows foreign companies to sue the Canadian government, which is indirect taxation of the public.

Travelling in Alberta, I have met people affected by fracking, people poisoned and people struggling to keep their land and water in its natural condition. I myself was in a hunting party up near Zama City, where I harvested a wild buffalo in the same place where CN Rail spilled 10 million litres of poison. Regulations to protect the public in Alberta have not been updated to reflect advances in our understanding of the dangers posed by fracking. Quebec put up a temporary moratorium on fracking because it understands the risks and the new science. Quebec is putting public safety before private profit, and now Canadians are being sued through ISDS by Lone Pine Resources Incorporated. The public has a right to protect itself. The public is the only party with the right to choose the appropriate balance between jobs and safety. Political uncertainty has always been part of the model when investing globally. The ISDS is a trick to get the public to insure foreign corporations' investment—it's a fool's deal, in my opinion.

Globalization has positive potential. So far, the outcomes have been extremely lopsided. So to allow the public to re-assert a degree of power in society that is dignified, I have the following recommendations.

The federal government ought to abandon the investor-state dispute settlement in all trade agreements in force and in the future. Until that is achieved, I recommend the federal government commit to pay no damages arising from judgments related to regulatory issues.

The federal government ought not ratify the TPP. I say again, the federal government ought not ratify the TPP.

I recommend amendment to the Canada Business Corporations Act to require all corporations to have a separate audit board. Of course, then opt out clauses appropriate for small business. I think simple majority is too few. This would be a good start toward improving transparency in our system.

My last recommendation is that the Government of Canada reach out to allies, with an agenda of developing consensus for a new vision of globalization that attends to tax havens and corporate secrecy and provides strong protection to the public.

Thank you.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, Mr. Young, for being well under time and getting all your points across

And thanks to all the witnesses for your submissions.

We're going to start off the questioning. I think we're going to get all members in there today.

So, we'll start of with the Conservatives, Mr. Hoback, for five minutes.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, witnesses, for coming this morning.

We're probably going to agree to disagree on a lot of things that have been said here among your groups, but you have raised my curiosity about some things, which I'd like to talk about a little more.

Sandra, you talked about generic drugs and how important it is that we get those on the market as quickly as possible to keep our drug costs down. How important is it to get the new drugs that we need, that are going to keep people out of hospital beds, the facilities? Have you done any work on that?

Then, when a company brings in these new drugs, how do you allow them to have the appropriate period to recover the costs in the research and development of maybe six drugs that don't go to market, and all of a sudden they do get one that does go to market. How do you find that balance?

10:30 a.m.

Executive Director, Friends of Medicare

Sandra Azocar

I think you're right. We're always looking for something new that could potentially save a life. The problem that I talked about in my presentation is that the investment in research and development is not there. The pharmaceutical companies made a pledge to invest 10% of their sales in developing new drugs and research and development, but that's not happening. The most that we—

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

You are talking about the Canadian...? I agree that maybe we need more research and development.

I know that in the agriculture sector we changed some rules to allow them to do research and development in Canada. Out of Saskatoon, you look at the biotech companies that are coming, and it's phenomenal.

On the drug side, I don't know it as well, maybe, as you do. My question, as somebody who needs drugs, is that I'm in a situation that I'd love them to be produced and researched and developed in Canada, but in the same breath I want to have access to top-tier drugs from around the world.

If that means we have to allow some protections so that those drugs do get developed, even if they're developed in Japan or another country like Australia, wouldn't that still be beneficial for the society of whole?

10:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Friends of Medicare

Sandra Azocar

That's what I'm trying to get across, the fact that's not happening at the speed that we need it to be happening. When we only have 5% being invested in those new drugs outside of Canada, then it becomes a problem because we're not going to see real movement in our being able to access new drugs. We need—

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

How do you see that move toward our being able to access drugs happening? They're available through TPP and if one is developed in Australia, I assume that Canadians are going to have access to that new drug. Are they not? What's going to restrict them? Is the province going to restrict them?

10:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Friends of Medicare

Sandra Azocar

Provincially, at least in Alberta, we're trying to lower the cost of drugs by bringing in—

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

But you want to lower the cost of health care too, right? When you look at lowering the cost of health care, it may mean you're spending more on one particular drug that saves you from being in a hospital for three weeks.

10:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Friends of Medicare

Sandra Azocar

For sure.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Is that not a fair comparison?

10:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Friends of Medicare

Sandra Azocar

But drugs are the highest-cost—

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Do drugs cost more than hospital beds?

10:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Friends of Medicare

Sandra Azocar

Actually, in Alberta right now, the two highest cost factors in our health care system are drugs and physician compensation.

What we're trying to do is actually be able to provide our populace with the right amounts of drugs so that we can do that preventative work when it comes to keeping people out of hospitals. That has always been a goal. It's not a matter of just cutting the costs of drugs. It's a matter of having the right types of drugs that are indicative of what the population needs in Alberta.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

I agree. So if we want to see that research happening, if we want to make sure that companies are investing money, then it's fair to say that we need to allow those investors...because there are investors. There are pension funds and a whole pile of people who invest in these pharmaceutical companies or biotech companies. They're investors, pension funds included. Do they not have a right to have a little bit of a guarantee of return on investment?

10:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Friends of Medicare

Sandra Azocar

The guarantee on investment is the point of dispute here, and that's something they do use to try and sell this TPP. Right now, in Canada, we have eight-year patent protection and so forth. What we don't need is a longer protection period so that the investment can happen. I think companies have a right to make a return on whatever investment they make, but you're talking about pharmaceuticals that could potentially....

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

You say only eight years, but let's say we go out to 10 or 12 years. Wouldn't that allow those drugs more time to be brought to the market at a cheaper price, because they don't have to recover their costs in such a short time period? Isn't it better to have it over a longer period?

10:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Friends of Medicare

Sandra Azocar

I think it does the opposite. I don't believe that would be the case. If we make it longer, they would have more control over the price, and the supply as well. When you give them that possibility of protecting their investment for a longer period of time, that's what becomes a problem in terms of our getting to the point where generic drugs can be developed, or bio-similar drugs can be developed as well.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Your time is up. Thank you, sir.

That was a good dialogue back and forth, but I have to remind members to sometimes give the witnesses some breathing room to answer the questions. Also, witnesses, keep the answers short, and then we can get everything in there in five minutes.

Now we're going to move over to Mr. Peterson, for five minutes for the Liberals.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for being here. Those were some informative presentations, and we appreciate it.

I have a question for Mr. McGowan.

You have some grave concerns about the labour provision in this agreement. The top TPP negotiator, I think even before our committee at one time, indicated that any foreign workers would have to be paid the prevailing wage in the jurisdiction where they're working.

Obviously, you have a difference of opinion on that. Can you maybe elaborate where that's coming from, or do you disagree with the chief negotiator?

10:35 a.m.

President, Alberta Federation of Labour

Gil McGowan

Yes, actually, I do fundamentally.

I know that this committee and members of Parliament have been provided with reassurances from people like the chief negotiator. In fact, the technical summary on negotiated outcomes, which was distributed through Global Affairs Canada, explicitly says that the concerns I've raised will not come to pass.

We've looked at this. This is not just the Federation of Labour saying this. We've reached out to trade and labour law experts for legal opinions. Those people have looked at the text, and they've turned to people who have expertise in trade law. I don't mean to offend anyone here, but they've come to the conclusion that those people who are providing reassurances that the labour mobility provisions will not open the floodgates for temporary foreign workers are simply wrong. I might go as far as to say that they're misleading people.

The technical summary, which I'm sure you've all read, explicitly ignores all of the adverse outcomes which we're convinced are written into the agreement. I would take those reassurances with a grain of salt.

I think the priority for people like the chief negotiator is to sign a trade agreement, and the implications of the agreement on the labour market are secondary. If they're considered at all, they're not given the same priority as trade issues and intellectual property issues, and certainly not given the sort of attention and priority that we think they should be given.