Evidence of meeting #15 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tpp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jim Balsillie  Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual
Michael Geist  Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law and Professor of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Lawrence Herman  Counsel , Herman and Associates, As an Individual
Barry Sookman  Partner, McCarthy Tétrault, As an Individual

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Good morning, everyone. Welcome.

It's been a hard week for many of us here. We have friends, relatives, and acquaintances in Fort McMurray, and Fort McMurray is going through a rough patch. Our thoughts are with them as we continue. We hope everything works out as best it can for them out there.

We are going to continue with our international trade committee study on the TPP. Our committee has been quite busy since this Parliament started. We had the European trade agreement that we're finishing up. We did a study on softwood lumber, and we have other various issues, but TPP is our main one. This committee is reaching out to stakeholders and the community at large to find out how much impact this trade agreement is going to have, not only on business and companies, but on average Canadians. It's going to affect everybody, one way or another, and so that's what we're doing.

We've had many meetings here in Ottawa but we also embarked on a trip out west. We did four provinces. We're going to two cities in Quebec and two cities in Ontario next week, then we're going to the Atlantic provinces and we'll go to the territories.

That being said, this morning we're going to have some witnesses here who will give us their opinions, and then we'll have an opportunity for MPs to ask questions and get more dialogue.

This morning, as individuals, we have Jim Balsillie, CEO of Research in Motion. We all love our BlackBerrys.

It's good to see you here, sir.

We have Michael Geist, Canada research chair and professor of law, Internet, and e-commerce law at the University of Ottawa.

Welcome, gentlemen. Try to keep to five minutes each, if you can, and that will give us lots of time for cross-examination—it's not that, but that's what the MPs do.

Go ahead, sir.

8:45 a.m.

Jim Balsillie Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, vice-chairs, members of the committee, and fellow Canadians. Good morning. Thank you for the invitation to meet with the committee and present my views on the Trans-Pacific Partnership. It is an honour and a pleasure to be here.

I am a self-made capitalist, and I believe in free trade and open markets. I've commercialized Canadian intellectual property in 135 countries to a level never done before or since. My global business experience is unique in Canada.

I would like to echo the words of Jared Bernstein, former chief economist to Vice-President Biden, who called for a third category of trade critics: people who believe in free trade and globalization but who don't like what TPP does to our countries, our working classes, and our environment.

TPP is not a traditional free trade agreement. It's deliberately called a partnership because it describes an economic framework for 21st century prosperity. TPP is not principally about reducing tariffs at our borders, but rather about rules that govern how we run our currently sovereign economy and how these new partnership rules get enforced. In the 21st century, making and exporting tangible goods has given way to a global economy where wealth is made by making and exporting intangible goods: intellectual property.

The chart you will see at the back of the papers illustrates this as well. In 1975 intangible goods were one-sixth of the value of the S and P 500 companies. By 2015 intangibles were five-sixths of the value of that same index.

The economy of intangible goods, unlike traditional trade, is governed by rules and restrictions that govern ownership of intellectual property. The intangible economy is the opposite of free trade. It is about rules and restrictions that grant temporary monopolies to those who own valuable intellectual property. When a country ratifies a bilateral or multilateral agreement that governs intellectual property, it makes the commitment to enact those rules inside our domestic marketplace. These are very different kinds of commitments from traditional trade agreements, because they are about how we commit, to other countries, how Canada will operate its economy internally.

Canada is not a large exporter of intellectual property, so we import a disproportionately large amount. Canada owns and exports very little intellectual property, because we've never had a national innovation strategy.

The other part that you will see here illustrates that we have had zero growth in innovation outputs over the past 30 years. Canada never developed capacity for the 21st century global economy, where wealth is generated by commercializing intellectual property.

The most recent modelling of TPP shows that the agreement delivers negligible results in the realm of traditional free trade. What's even more relevant is that all TPP models do not account for the two most important parts: intellectual property and investor-state dispute settlement. ISDS is a tribunal that supersedes sovereign law in a system that allows no appeals.

Below the charts, you will see a few critical statements from the smartest trade economist I have met in Canada, Dan Ciuriak. Not calculating the economic effects of IP and ISDS is like doing a budget for your family where you don't take rent or food bills into account.

As Nobel Prize economist and trade expert Paul Krugman has noted, most of the tangible goods already move tariff-free. The same is true for intangible goods, where 97% of the world in information technology products already move tariff-free under the WTO's information technology agreement.

So what is TPP if not about free trade? TPP is about expanding freedom to operate for the winners in the innovation economy and restricting it for the rest. Freedom to operate is a core strategic and risk management factor for businesses in the ideas economy. Sophisticated ideas businesses use freedom to operate strategies from the onset of their R and D all the way to commercializing and distribution cycles.

As CEO of a Canadian technology company that scaled globally from an idea to $20 billion, my principal focus for two decades was to expand our freedom to operate and constrain our competitors' freedom to operate. I look at TPP's impacts on scaling Canadian companies from this unique perspective.

Canada went into TPP negotiations without ever consulting a single Canadian innovator and without a strategy for this critical aspect of an innovation economy. None of the aspects that constitute an effective freedom to operate strategy are present in Canada today. We don't have an innovation office; prior art libraries; sovereign patent pools; bilateral or multilateral negotiation sophistication; federal, provincial, or global judicial strategies; sophisticated standards and regulation strategies; or collaboration frameworks designed to commercialize Canadian ideas globally. It's inexcusable.

We couldn't have negotiated for our prosperity because you can't negotiate a trade strategy without an innovation strategy, let alone talking to the very companies that such agreements are supposed to advance. If Canada wants to build capacity for the 21st century global economy, then we will need all of these sophisticated capacities.

What we need in Canada, and what I hope this committee will ultimately advance, is a more sophisticated discourse on trade and prosperity. It's not enough to peddle old-fashioned trade liberalization theories when our own best trade economists told us we don't even have models to account for the most impactful aspects of 21st century trade. It's not enough to have lawyers looking at TPP through the lens of elegant wordsmithing. Like all global tech CEOs, I've hired and fired dozens of IP lawyers around the world, and, I can tell you, lawyers don't commercialize ideas. They reduce their clients' instructions to legal wording.

I would like to conclude by saying that it's gratifying to share this session with Professor Geist, not only because he does a great job of educating the public about TPP, but because in his recent blog post, Professor Geist brought to light perhaps the most important fact that Canadians have to consider, which is the fact that our own civil servants know that TPP runs counter to our preferred national strategies. In a briefing prepared for Minister Freeland, which I hope you will all read, it's clear that our civil servants understand that Canada prefers to create its own IP policy through multilateral forums rather than being jackhammered by large owners of IP into a set of rigid new rules.

In reading the document that Professor Geist made public, I would characterize our approach to these trade deals as palliative. We know we're going to lose, so we focus on slowing the inevitable erosion.

Let met summarize my concern with TPP with this. We signed an agreement that our civil servants told the minister runs counter to Canadian preferences after concluding negotiations in secret without consulting a single Canadian innovator. Now that the deal is done, we're doing an economic study to assess its benefits, which doesn't include the most impactful elements related to national prosperity. Then we do consultations with relevant stakeholders to assess their views. That is then followed by creating a decades overdue innovation strategy. This is all backwards. This is precisely opposite to how trade deals should be concluded, step by step.

Thank you very much.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, sir. Thank you for that submission.

You have already introduced the other witness.

Go ahead, Mr. Geist.

If you could keep your remarks to around five minutes, we'd appreciate it.

8:55 a.m.

Dr. Michael Geist Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law and Professor of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

I'll do my best. Thank you, Chair.

Good morning. As you've heard, my name is Michael Geist. I'm a law professor at the University of Ottawa, where I hold the Canada research chair in Internet and e-commerce law. I appear today in a personal capacity, representing my own views.

There is a lot to say about the TPP. I've written dozens of articles and posts on the agreement, and I'm currently working on a book on point, but I have limited time, as you heard, so I'll focus on four issues.

The first issue is Canada's price of admission and weakness during the negotiations. As I'm sure you know, Canada was not an initial participant in the TPP talks. U.S. lobby groups urged the U.S. government to keep Canada out of the negotiations until a copyright bill was passed that satisfied its demands. Those demands had a significant impact on the contents of the 2012 Canadian copyright bill, particularly the retention of restrictive digital lock rules that were at the very top of the U.S. policy priority list.

Once the U.S. was convinced that Canada would meet its IP and anti-counterfeiting demands, it set further conditions for entry, including a commitment that Canada could not hold up any chapter if it was the lone opponent. That concession became important in the IP chapter, where there were some issues where Canada ultimately did stand alone and on which it was forced to cave.

As the negotiations neared a conclusion, senior Canadian officials were advised that Canada was at a disadvantage in the negotiations, given the lack of coordination and transparency between government negotiators and interested stakeholders. We went ahead anyway and agreed to the deal.

Second, what did we agree to?

I'll start first with the changes to intellectual property law. One of the best-known examples of this is the term of copyright, where in Canada the present term is the life of the author plus an additional 50 years, which is consistent with the international standards set by the Berne convention. It's also the standard that you find in half of the TPP, including countries such as Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Brunei, and Vietnam. The TPP requires an extension by an additional 20 years, which represents a major windfall for the United States and a net loss for Canada.

In fact, New Zealand, which faces a similar requirement, conducted its study on the cost of the extension alone, which it estimated at $55 million New Zealand per year. Some have taken issue with that study, but just last week a draft report from the Australian government's productivity commission pointed to estimates of their term extension, which occurred several years ago, and pegged it at $88 million Australian per year. The Canadian cost could even be higher.

The IP changes don't stop there. The TPP includes changes to digital lock rules, longer patent protections, criminalization of trade secret law, changes to trademark law, new border measures, and requirements for ratification by all TPP countries of as many as nine international IP treaties.

Third, it's not just about IP. In fact, the TPP of course goes far beyond that. It touches, for example, on culture, restricting the ability to expand CanCon contribution policies. This means, despite the fact of Canadian Minister of Heritage Joly's recent promise to review cultural policies, that contributions to support the creation of Canadian content may be effectively locked into place, with the TPP blocking new policies aimed at new services and technologies.

The agreement also leaves behind a complex array of regulations for service industries that is almost certain to result in unintended consequences. Hot button issues such as the regulation of online gambling, or ride-sharing services such as Uber, in the news just yesterday and today, may be decided by the TPP, not by Canadian governments, whether at the municipal or provincial levels.

On the Internet, it reverses our long-standing hands-off approach on Internet governance, and it fails to meet our standards on issues such as net neutrality. It even touches on privacy, restricting the ability for governments to implement restrictions on data transfers or data localizations while setting a very low threshold for privacy protection and anti-spam rules. This could place Canada between the proverbial rock and a hard place on privacy, sitting on the one hand between European demands and, on the other, TPP requirements.

Health is also directly affected, with increases for pharmaceutical pricing likely, locking in protections for biologics, and even sketching out rules for a national pharmacare program if Canada were to adopt one.

Fourth, the risks and potential costs of getting implementation wrong are enormous. The TPP was negotiated behind closed doors and presented to the public on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.

I've read references from some MPs claiming that Canada has already consulted on the deal, but I know few experts, if any, who were consulted during the negotiations. In fact, when I appeared before this committee in June 2013, I was told by government MPs that concerns related to the TPP were premature and that I and others should wait until the negotiations were complete.

Now that they are complete, I hear some saying that we've had enough consultation, yet we must recognize that the risks of getting implementation wrong are enormous. The investor-state dispute settlement provisions in the TPP point to the possibility of significant liability from corporate claims.

Minister Freeland has described the ISDS rules that are found in the Canada-EU trade agreement as the gold standard, but the TPP does not meet that standard. Moreover, even crafting our own rules within the TPP may be a non-starter since the U.S. maintains that it gets to decide for Canada how to ratify the agreement through its certification process. In sum, Canada was at a distinct disadvantage in the TPP negotiations, and it shows, with major losses on intellectual property, digital and cultural policies, as well as the prospect of significant liability through ISDS and U.S. certification into how we implement the deal. The issue isn't about being pro- or anti-free trade. In my estimation, it's about a bad deal that should be renegotiated or rejected and other trade alternatives pursued.

I welcome your questions.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you, Mr. Geist.

I'd also like to welcome some new members here. Mr. Picard is here, and Ms. May, and it's great to see you back, Mr. Lametti.

We're going to start off with a round of questions, and we're going to start with the Conservatives and Mr. Hoback for five minutes.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here this morning.

Mr. Balsillie, I'm going to start off with you. You talk about an innovation problem here in Canada, lack of innovation policy and lack of a vision for the innovation sector. What do you see contributed to this lack of strategy? Why wasn't there a proper policy in place?

9:05 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

Canada had a catastrophic confusion between science and technology strategy and innovation strategy. The fact that the concept of freedom to operate is being introduced for the first time in May 2016 means that the policy community in this country has a tremendous amount to answer for. We thought science and technology was innovation. We thought we had an orthodoxy that if you get free trade and stable banking and then you give a bunch to universities and spray and pray a few grants out there, it would all work out.

What we did not understand is that success and innovation is a set of deliberate and systemic exercises. We did exactly the opposite of what successful innovation economies like Germany, Israel, the U.S., Korea, Japan, and Sweden did. We zigged when the rest of the world zagged. If we don't change our approaches, we'll be doing Einstein's definition of insanity, doing the same thing over again.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

We have to get the innovation strategy right, regardless of whether you've got TPP, CETA, or any other trade agreement.

9:05 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

If you don't get the innovation policy right...

9:05 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

As I said, you start with the strategy, and then trade is a vehicle. We did it backwards.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Where I get confused here is, the lack of innovation strategy is a problem for sure, but you know we've had this lack of strategy through NAFTA, through previous trade bilateral agreements. How is signing TPP going to fix this lack of strategy?

9:05 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

No, the difference is that I've talked to the people who did FTA and NAFTA, and they did five years of study, consultation, and strategy, then they modelled it all, and then they went into the negotiations.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

But you can't wait for.... Again, there's criticism with Canada coming into the deal late. This deal was going on, and if you looked at the entire Canadian economy and what was in play, you didn't have the luxury of doing a five- or 10-year study beforehand to analyze what we should or shouldn't be doing. Decisions have to be made if we're going to ratify this deal. We've already signed it, so now if we're going to actually ratify it, are we still going to get the innovation strategy right? What in TPP is so different from NAFTA and the other trade agreements that it would actually prevent us from getting a proper strategy on innovation?

9:05 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

Because TPP is designed in a way that enshrines the positions of the actors permanently.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

You're an innovator here in Canada and you've spent five years developing a new technology, wouldn't you want that protection? Wouldn't you want to know that you have the ability to actually get a return on your investment, a return on your research? Don't you want that? Don't you want to make sure that somebody from another country doesn't come in and just cherry-pick your assets?

9:05 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

No, no, there isn't a single study in the world that says innovation will be better in TRIPS Plus under TPP rather than TRIPS under the WTO. It is exactly the opposite—

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Again, if I'm an innovator, don't I want that security? How do I protect myself? I develop a new product, a new app, let's say, how do I protect myself then if I don't have ISDS protection, if I don't have IP protection? How do I bank it? How do I go to my banker and say,“I've got this work, I need some research dollars, and once it hits the market I know in five years—five, 10 years, whatever the time frame should be—that I'm going to have the ability to market this stuff and actually get a return on my investment”?

9:05 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

As the person who's commercialized more in the history of this country, that is not how the system works, not at all. It works exactly the opposite. You have it 100% backwards. What you're doing in these rigid rules massively disadvantages Canadian innovators.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

You say I have it backwards. You're in a sector that turns over very quickly on new products and new versions—maybe I'll use that word for lack of a better one that comes to mind. Do you need the IP protection at all, if you're going to keep reinventing yourself every six months, offering a new, updated version?

9:05 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

IP protection is not about innovation; it is about protecting entrenched interests to preclude the ability of new innovators to come in. This is precisely what Robert Reich—

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

It's to prevent them from robbing somebody who's spent their blood, sweat, and tears developing the first invention.

9:05 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

That is a false narrative of how the innovation economy works.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

How does it differ? Help me understand why that's a false narrative.

9:05 a.m.

Former Co-Chief Executive Officer of Research in Motion and Co-Founder of the Institute for New Economic Thinking, As an Individual

Jim Balsillie

Because the game is run by patent thickets, and the decision of ownership is decided outside Canada, in courts that are—