In what context, sir?
Evidence of meeting #19 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tpp.
Evidence of meeting #19 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tpp.
9:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association
In what context, sir?
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
To me, when I look at freedom to operate, I call it freedom to steal. Some people are saying we should have everything open so other companies can take that knowledge, apply it to whatever they're building, and build their sector—
9:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association
Sir, my music publisher's opinion is that freedom to operate is not freedom to utilize somebody else's intellectual property to your advantage without compensation to the creators and originators of that intellectual property.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking
Thank you, sir.
We're going to move over to the Liberal Party for five minutes. Mr. Fonseca, you have the floor.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for their excellent presentations.
As I was listening, all three of you were talking through the lens of what the impact would be, good or bad, for the environment, for IP, and for logistics. Mr. Hutton has mentioned that's the only way he will look at this agreement, and he was not looking at it in a holistic way.
As parliamentarians, our job is to look at it holistically. As we're looking at it, some of the key factors in terms of our decision-making will be an increase of good paying jobs here in Canada, an increase in trade, and the opening up of markets around the world.
My question, Ms. Falcone, is this: Has UPS looked at how many jobs the TPP would bring to Canada through UPS?
9:40 a.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, UPS Canada
I don't have jobs related to the TPP specifically, but what I can tell you is that at UPS, every 22 packages that cross the border create or sustain a job at our company. We've certainly seen patterns that once a trade agreement is signed, we see growth in our volume, which leads us to expand our facilities and to add jobs across all areas, including teamster jobs and management positions. Trade, to us, definitely has a correlation with growth. As I mentioned before, with small businesses and larger organizations, we see companies that trade beyond Canada grow at a faster rate than those that don't.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
9:40 a.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, UPS Canada
I can't quantify specifically to this agreement. We are looking through analysis on projected growth of volume.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Hutton, do you see an increase in jobs through the provision around IP and increasing that from 50 to 70 years? How would that help in terms of job growth?
9:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association
That's a great question. I would answer you by saying we have to look at how many jobs will be lost if we don't, more so than jobs that are created. Our members are trying to sell products into foreign markets. It's the only growth market for our members, by selling musical compositions to TV pilots and movies, into foreign markets, and so on. It's difficult to do so when you're on a different basis in protecting that intellectual property than for those markets you're selling them into. We have to look at the reality that if we don't create that financial instrument to continue investing, will people start leaving the market because they're not being compensated sufficiently for the work they create?
I'm not trying to be evasive on your question, but I'm putting it back to you saying that we'll lose a lot of jobs if we don't look at this.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
The TPP first started to be negotiated with a number of countries in 2006. Canada was late to the game. We got in three years or four years ago. We were one of the last three countries to get involved in the TPP and to be at the table.
Where we are right now, it doesn't seem like anybody has any urgency to ratify the TPP. That's what we're finding globally with the 12 countries that are signatories to the TPP. Do you have an understanding of why that would be, Ms Wilson?
9:40 a.m.
Counsel, Canadian Environmental Law Association
In terms of the timing, I don't have an opinion on why that is, but I think this means we have the opportunity to take a look per chapter at what this is going to mean. For something like the environment, we need to go through it line by line, see what's protected, and notice how weak this chapter is and how little impact this chapter is going to have to protect the environment.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
How would you improve it? What would you suggest as changes to that chapter, if you had that opportunity?
9:45 a.m.
Counsel, Canadian Environmental Law Association
The first main issue is the language. It's weak, and it provides a lot of discretion. I'll give you an example.
In article 20.5 it talks about the protection of the ozone layer. What the chapter does is use words like “recognizing that emissions of certain substances can significantly deplete the ozone layer”, and “recognizing the importance of public participation, but in accordance with the parties' systems of participation already in place”. It commits the parties only to take measures to control the production and consumption of trade in ozone-depleting substances. We need a ban. It's too weak. Saying you should take measures is not well defined enough to control the trade of ozone-depleting substances. There should be a ban on those trades.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking
Thank you.
That wraps up your time, Ms. Fonseca.
We're going to move over to the NDP now, for five minutes.
Ms. Ramsey.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
Thank you so much for your presentations this morning.
Jacqueline, you bring an interesting perspective that we haven't heard. It's a very important piece that we sit and talk about because everything we're discussing relies upon this planet and relies upon keeping our natural resources in Canada, including our water, and having protection around those. We know the ISDS provisions have serious implications for us, as parliamentarians. In being able to enact legislation to protect them, we could be sued under ISDS. In trying to follow through with signing onto the climate change accord in Paris, we could end up being sued by corporations that view that as a threat to their profits.
Do you think we'll be able to reach the climate goals we have signed onto in Paris, if we sign the TPP?
9:45 a.m.
Counsel, Canadian Environmental Law Association
This is going to be a barrier to taking strong action on climate change. What provisions like the ISDS provisions put in place is an assumption the status quo is working. We know for something like climate change it's not. If we take strong action, which we need to and we're committed to do, those are exactly the types of measures that can be challenged under the ISDS provisions, and that's going to be a problem.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
Yes, it's going to be a huge problem for all of us, and the government that signed us on, to say we take this seriously and we're going to do this. All Canadians want this to happen. We need to address this. We had a 20-year-old before our committee yesterday saying, “You're erasing hope by signing the TPP. You're leaving a burden on our youth they won't be able to overcome in signing this agreement”. Regardless of the financial benefits, we have to look at the implication to our environment and people.
I'd like to ask Ms. Falcone a question. We had Jim Balsillie before the committee, from RIM, one of the greatest Canadian success stories we've had in innovation and technology, with its ability to tap into a global market, as well. He said there's nothing in the TPP that specifically advances any Canadian companies, and he stressed how the ISDS provisions in the structure are a seismic loss of autonomy and authority. Do you agree with that statement?
9:45 a.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, UPS Canada
I would say UPS works closely with groups like the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, that are in support of this agreement, and are made up of members that are producing goods in Canada and exporting. As I mentioned earlier, it does address digital commerce, and in our view the innovation agenda ties strongly to small business and the ability of Canadian companies to leverage the Internet to sell—
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
He also told us we would never see another Canadian success story like RIM, or an innovation, if we signed the TPP. He spoke in opposition to the TPP innovation chapters, but the question specifically is about ISDS. Has your organization looked at the implications it would have on those Canadians you say you employ? Their health costs would go up, their pharmaceutical costs would go up, and under ISDS provisions we could be sued for trying to implement a pharmacare program. Is that part of what you take into account when you're looking at the TPP?
9:45 a.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, UPS Canada
We look at all of this, and the competitive or disadvantage to organizations. I would say Canada has the same provisions as it is seeking to compete with in these other countries. It's a provision they can also leverage. It's a fact of the matter of competition. If we look at it, there's the competition that is going to come into Canada regardless.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
It has to be about people, too. It has to be about people, and it can't just be about what's good for corporations. There is the other aspect that you're a Canadian company—
9:50 a.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, UPS Canada
It also provides consumers access to—
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
Yes, you have workers in your company. Presumably you care about their livelihoods and their well-being. This is the balance of the TPP: out of the 30 chapters, it is the six that deal with traditional trade. It's the others that are concerning: the environmental chapters, the ISDS provisions, the others. When you look at the TPP, do you look at the entire agreement and say, “Okay, how will this impact me, as a Canadian, my family, my neighbours?” Or is it simply that you say, “This will advantage us in a business sense”.
9:50 a.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, UPS Canada
We also service consumers. More and more of the percentage of the shipments we deliver, a high percentage, is going to consumers. We look at consumers as our customers versus years ago when it was just the businesses selling A to B. The agreement we see gives consumers advantage in terms of access to goods. The ISDS provisions, which could be a risk to Canadians, also have those equal advantages in terms of the other countries, and how Canada is going to protect them. I would say from us looking at it holistically, there's ISDS provisions also in NAFTA. It comes with part of the program with trade agreements. There's nothing in there that's different that we would say would put Canadians at a significant disadvantage or our employees.