International Trade Committee on June 2nd, 2016

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

It's the one part of your argument that I'm really having a hard time with. I see where there might be some competition that really we couldn't compete with, but they don't have the standards. They don't have the training. Our people here, in the localities, would shut them down in a heartbeat. Wouldn't you agree?

[Matt Wayland]

If I may, I would say that our standards are very high, but they wouldn't shut them down in a heartbeat. I've seen it. I've worked on the tools. I've worked on job sites where it's gone on—

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Can you give us some of those examples? That's what we really need. We need to see that this has happened here, here, and here.

[Matt Wayland]

I mentioned one earlier in my remarks, but yes.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Maybe just so we can look at that. I appreciate that.

Mr. Benson, it's good to see you. You and I have been around for a long time. I would consider you a friend

[Phil Benson]

And you too, sir.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

We've had some great chats. When we get together again we'll have this discussion again too. Without exception, industry—and I'm not talking about the big multinationals that everybody likes to hammer; I'm talking about the small, individual farmers and the small and medium-sized businesses—all are telling us this is a great thing. So there's a disconnect. We recognize there's a disconnect.

I read an article recently, maybe a month ago, but at any rate it was about the Teamsters in the United States. They are experiencing an enormous shortfall, and actually a catastrophe in the making, in their pension. You and I talked about pensions and you told me how you service your own pension in the Teamsters, and I applaud you for that.

I'll tell you what keeps me awake at night. It's losing the ability to do business with the United States. If that were to become a reality.... They said that in just a few short years you guys are going to run out of money. The United States Teamsters would say, “You have to stop this. We're going to shut the borders up”, and they would close the borders rather than open up borders, which is what trade agreements do. How would you respond to that?

[Phil Benson]

First, on the pension issue, it's complicated, but it really goes back to a Republican bill that passed the House.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Okay, Phil, answer my question. Are you a bit worried like I am that the United States, and especially the labour union—and I would completely understand it—would say, “That's enough of this. These manufacturing jobs that you're putting into Canada for, whatever, the low dollar at 75¢.... This has got to stop and we want to see this thing here”, so the protection walls would fly up again? It's a reversal of where we're going.

[Phil Benson]

I'm not concerned at all with a protection wall flying up between us and America. The IBT, which we're proud members of as well, isn't. The concern isn't with the United States of America. We have the NAFTA with them that's been fairly decent. We have some problems with it—

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Trump said he's going to rip all those agreements up.

[Phil Benson]

Who?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Mr. Trump.

[Phil Benson]

I don't think we'll be supporting Mr. Trump. You don't have to worry about that, Dave.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

It's good talking to you, Phil.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

You had to throw that Trump in there, didn't you?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I'm pretty sure you can count on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

That's like throwing the cat in with the pigeons.

We're going to move on to the NDP for three minutes.

Go ahead, Ms. Ramsey.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

First of all, I think that people who have a pension in this country should count themselves lucky and fortunate that they even get to think about a pension, because many Canadians do not. The overwhelming majority of Canadians do not.

I want to talk about jobs. What we're talking about is a real threat in chapter 12, in this labour mobility chapter. Make no mistake. We've had many people before our committee, including presentations from lawyers, who have dissected it.

My question is for Mr. Smillie. You spoke about the irreversible nature of chapter 12. Can you expand on that, please?

[Christopher Smillie]

Sure. Once you sign a trade deal like this, it is good forever and always. There's no ability to go back to the trading partners and say, “Oh, by the way, we're getting negative feedback from Canadians and there are job losses associated with this. We want to change this, and we want to make sure that we get it right for Canadians two years from now.” Well, you don't have that ability. Once you sign that deal, there's no way to change it. With this deal, it's up or down. It's ratify or don't. That's driven by—

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

That's fair. I think that's the position we're in. We know we're in a yes or no situation. The thing is with the TPP, some of you would not be sitting here if chapter 12 didn't exist. Let's be honest. We can't sit and speculate about what we have and what we could have, because we've never had this. The most concerning piece is that our largest trading partner, the U.S., opted out of this chapter.

Mr. Wayland, can you speak to the impact this could have on trade coming across the border? We're not looking at people coming from Peru and different countries, but certainly the U.S., and people who do not have proper qualifications, don't need to present them in the TPP.

[Matt Wayland]

Absolutely. Someone mentioned GDP earlier. The construction industry is 14% of Canada's GDP on a consistent basis. We have not seen any studies, nor have we commissioned any on our end either, on what impact that would have. The answer is, as Chris mentioned, we don't know—it hasn't been included in a trade deal before—what that would look like.

Are we concerned? Absolutely. Otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here talking about chapter 12.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

It's reasonable to say that we could see people without Canadian qualifications, or even certification from the United States, coming across the border. I live in Windsor. Essex is my riding. We certainly have seen this. We need Canadian jobs in our communities and this is a threat to that, so I think it is fair that you're sitting here presenting on that aspect.

Go ahead.

[Matt Wayland]

Anyone around the table, especially as elected officials, if an electrician or a carpenter or a pipefitter or a welder were sitting at home on employment insurance or was out of a job and looking for work, and there were foreign workers coming in through the TPP, not even through the temporary foreign worker program, doing work in your riding, you would be getting a lot of phone calls and emails about it. It would definitely have an impact on your constituency.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

I get those phone calls all the time. We've seen local work go out to different contractors. I have IBEW members who are unemployed in my region who can't find work, so it's certainly a real issue.