Evidence of meeting #24 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking
I will just remind MPs not to throw questions at the panellists in the last 15 seconds, because I really do not like cutting off the panellists when they're right in the middle of a thought.
We're going to go on to the NDP.
Madam Ramsey, go ahead.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
I'd like to dig a little bit further into chapter 19, because last week we had the IBEW, the building trades, here. They expressed to us the view that for previous trade deals, they wouldn't even have been sitting here, because this has never been part of a trade negotiation.
We know there are many abuses of the TFW program and that the program is extremely broken. As a matter of fact, there's another committee studying it in Parliament right now. By all accounts, in this chapter we're looking at the TFW program with absolutely no rules around it, with what I like to call the “roof blown off”. We know that 58,000 jobs will be lost in Canada under the TPP. That doesn't include the influx that we would have due to the labour mobility chapter.
I'd like to offer my time to Mr. Shrybman.
We received a report from you earlier this year, through the Alberta Federation of Labour, which really opened our eyes to the labour mobility chapter. So I'd like to give you some space to continue what you were saying around chapters 12 and 19, if you can elaborate on that.
9:30 a.m.
Member of the Board of Directors and Partner at Goldblatt Partners LLP, The Council of Canadians
Thank you very much.
I didn't finish my thought on chapter 19, so let me begin there.
I was saying that there's a modest step forward that one might take from the requirements of chapter 19, namely, that the parties put in place rules that give effect to the ILO declaration. The problem is knowing what would actually be required to give effect to those broad principles that are set out in the declaration. One has to have reference to the conventions, which actually put meat on the bones of protection for workers so they can organize and bargain collectively and they don't have to compete with child or prison labour.
The parties rejected including any reference to the convention in the text, so while the broad principles are there, one has no obligation under the TPP to give them effect by putting in place actual rules that will make them effective and enforceable.
There's also a requirement that countries adopt provisions concerning conditions of the work: minimum wage, unemployment, those matters. But there's no floor, so a country may have to have a minimum wage law, but it may not provide any meaningful standard of living, even within the frame of that particular jurisdiction.
What we have in the labour chapter is the promise of some protection for workers and for their core labour rights, so they can be guaranteed some minimum conditions of work, but there's none of the meat that you would need on those bones to make the protections enforceable and real and material. It's a step forward, but it's more of a claim to concern than it is a practical one that could actually result in meaningful enforcement.
In terms of labour mobility, I think the removal of any requirement that someone seeking to bring foreign workers into the country first establish that there aren't Canadian workers ready, willing, and able to take those jobs, is outrageous in my view. Under free trade, workers have to compete with workers in other jurisdictions that have no labour protection and aren't paid anything resembling a reasonable wage. Now they're going to have to compete with foreign workers in jobs here in Canada, subject to the same corrosive erosion of their claim to fair employment at a decent wage.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
Mr. Ross, in the pork industry, you mentioned that there would be an increase in the number of jobs. You estimated there would be about 4,000 new jobs, I believe. Do you have a report that you can submit to the committee by which you came to that conclusion?
9:30 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Pork Council
Yes, we can certainly provide you with the report.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
Perfect.
My other question is for Mr. Perrault. It's concerning that we have so many jobs that are leaving Canada and I wonder if you can talk about the impact this would have if we're looking at financial services. Would you see an increase in Canadian jobs in your sector? That's ultimately my question.
9:35 a.m.
Senior Vice President and Chief Economist, Scotiabank
The bottom line for us is that this is a deal that expands economic opportunity for Canadian firms, and if Canadian firms are doing better, which is what we think would happen, it means we will have more activity with them. That would be positive for us.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking
We're going to move on to the Liberals.
Mr. Fonseca, you have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, sir.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
We have been listening attentively and each one of you represents a particular sector or a particular issue. This committee of parliamentarians is really entrusted with looking at how the TPP benefits Canadians as a whole, and Canada itself. Looking at it that way, we think about good-paying jobs here in Canada, about competitiveness, and about profitability. We've heard differing opinions here from the different panellists.
Mr. Schumann, when did you first find out that the U.S. was excluded from chapter 12?
9:35 a.m.
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
We found out after New Zealand released the documents after the election. That was the first time.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
Was it a shock to you when you found that out?
9:35 a.m.
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
It was a shock that they were excluded and that we were included. We were never approached. It's the first time ever that labour's been included. I know that we were asked why we didn't ask to reach out. We just assumed because labour was never included in past agreements, why would it be included in this agreement, and why would we even worry about it?
It was after the fact that we realized this was happening.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
It probably wouldn't have made a difference anyway if you would have signed-off on a confidentiality agreement, because the agreement had already been concluded with the United States.
9:35 a.m.
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
Agreed.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
You mentioned Mexico being being able to bring workers into Canada through a company. How about the United States? As our greatest trading partner bordering us—and they're being excluded from chapter 12—would they be able to bring up their infrastructure companies, contractors, and have them come in and do our work?
9:35 a.m.
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
Only if a U.S. company decided to open a subsidiary in Mexico, Peru, Chile, or somewhere we've signed onto, would they be able to bring up workers. Maybe it's a possibility. I even think that some Canadian firms may open up subsidiaries in Mexico to bring up cheaper labour. There are opportunities, but direct mobility between Canada and the U.S? It cannot happen.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
The title of the chapter is “Temporary Entry for Business Persons”, but when you talk about some of the jobs that you've mentioned, those are people on the tools—
9:35 a.m.
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
Agreed.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
—on the cranes, etc.
How would they be able to get on the tools, on those job sites, without being detected, because they're not seen as business persons, as professionals? They're actually on the job site.
9:35 a.m.
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
There are four subsections in that chapter, correct. You can come in as a business visitor. You can come in as an intra-company transferee. You can come in as an investor. You can come in as a technician of a profession.
We believe they'll come under professions and technicians, because construction is listed as well as intra-company transferees. We found in the TFW that there was a grey area and that people could game the system through intra-company transferees, bringing people in that way to work in Canada.
So there are ways to bring people in and companies out there will look for ways to game the system, to bring in cheaper labour if they want to make a buck in Canada.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Peter Fonseca Liberal Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
This is an aside. We do know that we have a labour shortage when it comes to the trades. What we've done in the past under the temporary foreign worker program is completely broken. As well, this TPP would not really be able to address that in the way that would be of benefit to Canada and Canadians.
How do you see that being addressed? What do you think we should do?
9:35 a.m.
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
There are a couple of things.
First, I'll be clear. We're not opposed to foreign workers coming to Canada. For example, a couple of years ago, we brought in 150 crane operators from Chicago through the TFW program to work in Alberta—legitimate system follow-through. In a time of need, we'd understand there's a need for foreign workers, but for the next little while, I don't think there's going to be much need for foreign workers, as we're facing more and more unemployment on the construction side, unfortunately, with the price of oil dropping.
The one thing they need to fix is the criteria for people to come in. For example, they have a category where you need a technical degree, post-secondary education, and four years of paid work. Mexican workers—no offence to Mexican workers—don't have the qualifications to meet the standards in Canada. I don't believe a training college or university in Mexico will have the skills or whereabouts to provide enough training to make these people qualified to meet the standards of Ontario.
One thing I would like to see—and we've been talking to the officials about—is a demonstration of skills. Perhaps if a person wants to come to work in Canada on a trade, they need to show that they can operate a crane that will meet Ontario standards. We could do it in Mexico. We could do it in Ontario.
The Ontario College of Trades does it right now. They have a long list of what you need to do. You need to pass the exam. You need to show that you understand hand signals and then you must do a demonstration of skills. If a person shows that and is qualified to work in Ontario, bring that person in. The more the merrier if they meet the qualifications.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking
Thank you, sir. That wraps up your time and the end of the first round.
We're going to move to the second round and we'll start with the Liberals.
Ms. Ludwig, for five minutes.
June 7th, 2016 / 9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB
I noted a couple of themes that we've heard throughout the consultations. One is the need for deeper and reliable economic analysis. Currently, we often hear about one particular study, but we certainly need further economic analysis, and I do believe that is forthcoming.
We heard about threats from the temporary foreign worker program. Ideally, that's being addressed by another committee that's studying that, as Ms. Ramsey mentioned. There is inconsistency in the cost of new medicines and vaccines, and there are challenges in the sanitary and phytosanitary area regarding, in this case, the pork industry.
To date, we have not heard from the banking sectors, and that's where I'm going to start. Would Scotiabank be one of the most diversified banks in Canada in terms of its presence in international markets?