Evidence of meeting #24 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
All right, but these are Canadians that are doing this. These aren't illegal aliens or....
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
The third part is: they are undocumented Canadians who have come in through previous temporary foreign worker programs and have vanished in the system.
Conservative
Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
I'd be very interested in having a heads up on that as you move forward.
The concern I have is, how do these companies do this? There are city permits, provincial permits, workers compensation, all these different things, so how do I as the owner of that complex or the contractor get around the liability side?
You made the point about an undocumented worker on the crane on the West Block, and so on. That doesn't happen because it's a government project, as everybody is checked, double checked and triple checked.
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
Yes.
Conservative
Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
I'm amazed at how I would get around the liability.
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
As a contractor, or as an owner?
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
If the contractor hired an illegal, then they're not worried about liabilities at all. They're willing to take that chance to increase their bottom line. The liability and contracts don't matter to some of these people that come in.
Conservative
Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK
On a job that size, I can't understand it. Whenever I moved my equipment on to a unionized site, I paid dobie dues, and I had to have the certification up the wazoo, and all of that before I could even put another operator on the machine rather than myself. I don't understand how this is slipping through the cracks at the size and the scale that you're talking about.
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
First of all, to answer that, you said that it was a unionized site. We're diligent on unionized sites.
Conservative
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
Yes, but we represent only a third. Up to 40% of the construction sites are unionized members, and 60% is done with non-union workers. Out of that, I can't give you a percentage or how much of that is illegal, but people cut corners to save. As you and I talked about, they game the system. People do. These are foreign companies. It's not domestic companies, but foreign companies are bringing workers in. There has been a long line in history of people abusing the system.
I can give you a couple of examples. With inter-company transfers, a company in Washington State brought in 12 foreign workers who did not meet any criteria. It filled out the forms and lied on the forms to say that these people were qualified, but upon further investigation, a judge found that 10 of the workers should not have been in Canada. They stopped the case because the job was done, the company no longer existed in Canada, and it was back in the U.S.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking
Thank you, Mr. Ritz. I'm sorry, but your time is well over.
I'll remind panellists, and especially MPs, when you see the little red light going on there are only 15 seconds left, because we want to move on to another MP.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking
I'll put it nice and high here.
Mr. Dhaliwal, they're trying to take some of your time, but I'm not letting that happen. Five minutes.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
My first question goes to for the senior vice-president and chief economist of Scotiabank, Mr. Perrault. You mentioned in general the benefits of the TPP. I have particular concerns about the privacy of Canadian businesses when banks will be dealing in those countries. Do you face those challenges now, or would it be even a bigger problem if we get into the TPP situation?
Senior Vice President and Chief Economist, Scotiabank
When we operate in whatever country we operate in, we respect the rules and regulations in place in that country and in Canada. That goes without saying.
The main advantage for the TPP from a financial services perspective is that it places our banks and our competitors in Canada on a level playing field with the domestic institutions. That is the fundamental aspect of it from a financial services perspective.
In terms of the privacy considerations, we respect the letter of the law in the various countries we operate in. I don't think TPP changes that. The main advantage is simply that we will be treated the same way as every other foreign bank is in whatever TPP country we go into.
We don't see it as a big challenge on the privacy side. We just see it as an opportunity for our customers.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
Mr. Schumann, you mentioned that there are undocumented workers, particularly in British Columbia. Do you have any estimates of how many undocumented workers we have in Canada right now?
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
I don't have the exact number. I know the building trades in British Columbia have been looking at this, and I also believe that the Canada Revenue Agency has been trying to get a handle on it as well.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
If we enter into the TPP, and you're concerned that those workers will be able to come in without any restrictions, would Citizenship and Immigration still be in charge of issuing visas to them?
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
When someone comes into Canada, when they have a job, they have to meet criteria to come in. They go to the work site, and the enforcement is done by ESDC and Service Canada. There are many different layers involved. Unfortunately, we've found that currently the regulated system of the temporary foreign worker program is not working very well. There is a lack of communication between two departments and one service sector, and so these people are slipping through the cracks. We don't believe that these people who are coming through will be qualified to work in Canada, so you're going to have underskilled workers, who are not going to meet Canadian standards—those in British Columbia or Ontario, for example—so there's not only the question of whether these people are going to stay, but there's also going to be a question of safety on a work site.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
You mentioned work safety. I'm sure, WorkSafeBC and the employers are trying to implement those standards on sites irrespective of whether undocumented workers or bona fide Canadian workers are working on them. My concern is this. You already mentioned that the temporary foreign workers program has created more undocumented workers in Canada. It could be perceived that with the TPP there will be an even greater influx of those undocumented workers, and people might not go back. Do you see that happening?
Canadian Government Affairs Director, International Union of Operating Engineers
I do, and again, a case in point—I can't remember the name—was a company in British Columbia that brought in a bunch of Polish workers, who were being underpaid. The company was charged and pulled up shop. It left, I think, 15 workers stranded in British Columbia, so the unions and some social assistance people had to start providing for these people. Some vanished; some got back home; one person committed suicide.
They companies that come in with some of these things, especially some foreign workers, don't care about the workers they're bringing in. Once they've done the job, they don't care what happens to them. If they go back, that's great; if they don't, that's not their problem. They've done the job; they got their money; they're going to leave.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
Ms. Dey, do you see any amendments to ISDS provisions in the TPP, or do you see an alternative to this?
Trade Campaigner, National, The Council of Canadians
There are countries that refuse to sign agreements with ISDS mechanisms in them, including Brazil and South Africa. India also has an interesting view on investment. It is possible to be a trading nation and not necessarily sign ISDS. Obviously, if ISDS had reforms in the sense that human rights, environment, or labour standards were also enforceable, and you could actually sue, and there would actually be some teeth to them, then we wouldn't have a problem of a hierarchy of rights of investors over our domestic law. That's very important for us, because we really, truly, believe in the rule of law, whereby our laws and our constitution should have precedence rather than a narrow series of rights that are just for investors and that don't have the full body of legal mechanisms.