Evidence of meeting #34 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lot.
10 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Ocean Choice International L.P.
I would just add that of course we're focused on our sector and what the impacts are on our sector.
I'm sure there are others who will come before you and speak more to that. Our umbrella trade organization would deal with the general agreement.
10 a.m.
NDP
Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON
I have to plead with you to please learn about these chapters, because it impacts the communities that you represent as well.
We heard from the Grand Manan Island fishermen's co-op when we were in New Brunswick. They said we can't only look at the bottom line and not look at fishermen and fishing communities. We have a lot of sustainability rules here in Canada that we honour. We respect both the sea and the land in order to preserve it and to continue years of fishing. ISDS provisions could threaten us. We could be sued—
10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking
Excuse me, Ms. Ramsey. Your time is up.
We're going to move over to Ms. Ludwig.
You have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead.
10:05 a.m.
Liberal
Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Good morning, and thank you all for your excellent presentations.
To Mr. Butler and Mr. Sullivan, we've heard from a number of witnesses on the ISDS provisions and the concern about the government being sued and corporations being sued. Are you concerned about being sued if the ratification goes forward with the TPP?
10:05 a.m.
Executive Director, Association of Seafood Producers
I would go back to the same answer we gave previously. We don't see a concern. I could address it from my personal perspective on my position on free trade agreements and whatnot, but I think I'd rather confine my remarks formally on behalf of the association in respect to the tariff component of the deal.
I would say this: I've been around a bit, and I was around in the days of FTA and NAFTA. I'm not in the camp with Mr. Trump. I think these deals are good deals for the country. In reference to one of the previous witnesses in respect to the hydro payout, or Newfoundland being sued—Abitibi I think is the pulp and paper mill—it was a very particular issue. There was legislation passed at the provincial level expropriating assets. It reached beyond the intent of legislation and therefore set up an expropriation challenge. It was a particularly unique situation. My members haven't been sued under NAFTA or FTA , or any other deal that I know of.
10:05 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Ocean Choice International L.P.
I would just add that, no, we don't expect to be sued under the trade agreements. One thing we've learned is that when you enter trade agreements like this, there are always trade-offs.
This is a very detailed agreement. The tariff chapters alone are hundreds of pages. I certainly haven't read all of the agreement, and I wouldn't profess to. But from what I understand, from what we've experienced with other trade agreements that Canada has done, by and large they turn out to be very positive. They create a lot of new opportunities for our companies and our people. As well, the benefits do get shared back to fishing communities and rural areas.
10:05 a.m.
Liberal
Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Sullivan, you mentioned that you employ 1,700 people here in Newfoundland and Labrador and that you have six international sales offices. In the event of a change regarding trade agreements—let's say, for instance, we did not ratify the Trans-Pacific Partnership but the U.S. and Japan did ratify—how might that complicate, challenge, or create opportunities here in Newfoundland and Labrador for the fisheries industry?
Perhaps you could then tie that into the high cost of drugs, because that certainly is a concern we've heard from coast to coast to coast. How will that affect it, and how can we also pay for the drug costs, even as they are right now, from a provincial level?
10:05 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Ocean Choice International L.P.
Well, there are a few questions in there.
10:05 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Ocean Choice International L.P.
If we're not part of it and our competitor countries are, it certainly will put us at a trade disadvantage. There's no question about that. We've seen how even a small country like Iceland, which did a trade deal with China, increased their competitiveness vis-à-vis other competitor countries in the North Atlantic, as an example. Really, from our perspective, if we can have these trade agreements and provide opportunities for better incomes for people, then they can afford more.
As I said, we don't fully understand all the minutiae of the agreement, and I wouldn't profess to be an expert, but as exporters and producers here, and as employers of a lot of people, we're trying to increase the value back to the country so that people have better incomes and better lives and we can have sustainable rural communities. I mean, that's really what we're about.
10:05 a.m.
Liberal
Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Okay.
To Mr. Kavanagh and Mr. Hynd, certainly we've heard across the country the concerns you've expressed, and they are of vital importance.
10:05 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking
Ms. Ludwig, you have only 45 seconds. A quick question would be appreciated.
10:05 a.m.
Liberal
Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Okay.
Through the opportunity of export, is there an opportunity for us to also export our own values and share them with our trading nations, so that we also raise the level of expectations and values that we share here in Canada?
10:05 a.m.
Chair, St. John's Chapter, Council of Canadians
That's a difficult question to answer.
10:10 a.m.
Chair, St. John's Chapter, Council of Canadians
I'd say the answer is no. In fact, I'm worried about the other way around. Some of the trading partners in the TPP are doing some un-humanitarian things.
10:10 a.m.
Chair, St. John's Chapter, Council of Canadians
Let's look at Malaysia as an example.
10:10 a.m.
Co-Chair, Social Justice Cooperative of Newfoundland and Labrador
I think our support for the Global Fund shows that we can show our values in supporting public health globally, but again, it doesn't square with TPP. That's my problem. Charity efforts don't square with trade.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to carry on with regard to the ISDS provisions and give Mr. Kavanagh and Mr. Hynd the opportunity to speak.
Do you see any alternative proposals to ISDS? As well, how would you suggest balancing a member state's commitment to TPP with on the other hand making sure that the corporations won't abuse the system?
10:10 a.m.
Chair, St. John's Chapter, Council of Canadians
My alternative to investor-state provisions in trade deals is to remove them. We have a pretty stringent independent court system in this country. I just think there's something wrong when we allow our governments to be hamstrung by an outside investor-state process that in fact does tie their hands to implement laws and policies that are in the best interests of Canadians.
There is no grey area, sir. With all due respect, the only alternative is to remove investor-state provisions from trade deals.
10:10 a.m.
Co-Chair, Social Justice Cooperative of Newfoundland and Labrador
Again, very similar to Mr. Kavanagh, I'd say look at what happened with Eli Lilly. Two Canadian courts looked at their patents and said there was no real new utility and said it should go generic. They've said, under investor-state, that you don't have to really show new utility, you have to show a “scintilla” of utility. I think the problem is, who rules, who determines? We're a sovereign nation, very sophisticated, and I think our Canadian courts should be allowed to decide if a drug should be patented or if it should be considered generic.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
You also talked about free trade being not only for the corporations but also for the rights of labour and environment. When it comes to the TPP, do you see that balance there?