International Trade Committee on Oct. 18th, 2016

[Jerry Ward]

I should have explained. The Nunavut Offshore Allocation Holders represent the overall fishing industry in Nunavut and all allocation holders in particular.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Okay.

[Jerry Ward]

We've developed an offshore fishing industry, of course, to the point that today we have six large factory freezer vessels and one modern fish processing plant in Pangnirtung.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you, sir.

We probably have enough time for one round with the MPs. We'll start off with the Conservatives.

Mr. Van Kesteren, you have five minutes. Go ahead.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you all for being here this morning.

Mr. Ward, those are staggering numbers. Are the fisheries that you represent by and large Canadian-owned?

[Jerry Ward]

That's a very good question. I'm glad you asked it. When we started this business, of course we couldn't find, nor did we have access to, vessels ourselves. Initially we did charter a couple of vessels to prove that the fishing was viable. I wish to report today that out of the six large factory freezer vessels, they're all Canadian-owned, sir.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

That's excellent. That's good to hear.

One of the things that concerns us as a committee, although it's not our mandate to oversee fisheries, is fish stock. I don't know a whole lot about the fishing industry in the north. I wonder sometimes how much fish can be regularly maintained and how that industry can continue to maintain itself.

How is it? Are you monitoring that well? Have you seen strong fish resources, and is the Canadian government doing a good job of keeping other countries at bay, outside our jurisdiction?

[Jerry Ward]

Let me start off by saying that there are no foreign countries fishing in our waters. We operate from the north, between Canada and Greenland, and go off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. Sustainability is the key issue for us. It always has been. We are the new kids on the block. We hope we'll learn something from some of the issues that have occurred in the south in particular.

But no, we have a fairly good program in place. We do surveys each year with the support of—and it's normally led by—Fisheries and Oceans. We ourselves contribute significantly to the surveys that are carried out in the north, certainly more as a percentage than anywhere else in the country. We live in the north. We know that the waters are colder and the fish grow slower. To use today's buzzword, we've taken a very “precautionary” approach, and the limits at which we fish are substantially lower than they are in our southern neighbours' jurisdictions specifically.

We feel comfortable that the stocks are in very good shape. We would never do an increase in any quota or allocation without support from the scientific community.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Finally, are the first nations and Inuit people involved in the fishing industry, and if so, in what capacity?

[Jerry Ward]

This is a good question. I'll go back 20 years to 2001, with the introduction of new quotas for turbot that came in after Nunavut became a territory in 1999.

We had at that time what we would call token employment, to be quite honest with you, and minimum vessels. We now employ over 300 Inuit in our facilities, both offshore and onshore, and we have six large factory freezer vessels that are held by Nunavut interests.

Our next step, of course, is to move further into the managerial and technical positions. From a training perspective, we've spent about $20 million to 2005 in training, and probably about $15 million overall in survey work specifically. This is all guided toward work with the communities, the Government of Nunavut, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc., and the other organizations within Nunavut.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you. That's a great story.

Mr. Bourassa, we thank you for your presentation. Much of what we heard was what we also heard from the unions across the country. I think what we're looking for here is more specific to the territory that you're representing. I'm wondering if you could maybe zero it down to where it will most affect the Northwest Territories and Nunavut.

[Jack Bourassa]

Some of the particular concerns have a lot to do with some of the extraction industries that are here. We don't have an issue with the extraction of some of our natural resources in itself, but rather it's the moral implications with some of the ways that things are done.

Just touching, for instance, on fracking, fracking in the north in the permafrost can have some very detrimental effects to our environment and to the social economy of our varying communities. There is a lot of methane that's released with the infrastructure put in place to accommodate fracking. These kinds of things are also very temporary, in and of themselves, and they do interfere a lot with the migration of the different herds that our first nations rely on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you. That wraps up your time.

We're going to go over to Ms. Ludwig.

Go ahead, for five minutes.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Good morning. I'm not sure what time it is there. It's actually not morning here either; it's 12:30 p.m.

Thank you so much for your presentations. It's great to hear from the north. I want to start with Mr. Ward.

Mr. Ward, I represent a riding that is deeply involved with seafood production as well as scientific research. Much of the work that's been done in halibut was actually done in my riding at Canada's oldest biological station, so we probably have much in common.

One of the things that I would like to address to all of you is a general question regarding employment. We've heard from past witnesses—and certainly today we hear as well—the concern about temporary foreign workers. We hear very clearly the historic unemployment rates in the north.

I want to read this to you as a form of reassurance, because I felt very reassured listening to this from Kirsten Hillman, the chief negotiator for TPP. We often hear about temporary foreign workers. These are not temporary foreign workers who are being implicated or involved with the TPP agreement. She stated: “Under the TPP, facilitated access into Canada would be limited to high-skilled business persons who have either invested substantial capital, or who have pre-arranged contracts or employment offers in Canada.” They are temporary entrants. They're not temporary foreign workers.

Mr. Ward, you mentioned that you have about 300 Nunavut members, citizens, who are employed in the fisheries sector and six Canadian fleets.

This morning Mr. Marshall, from the mining association, said that one-sixth of jobs in the north are involved in the mining sector. What would happen to the north if, in fact, Canada did not ratify, when many of our competitors internationally did? What might happen work-wise and employment-wise in the north?

[Jerry Ward]

From the perspective of the two species that we focus on, those being shrimp and Greenland halibut—in this case turbot—it's very important for us that the TPP be ratified. If it is not ratified, then it may cause us some problems because of the high tariff rates and so on. If it isn't ratified, then we'd strongly urge that Canada enter into bilateral agreements with these countries specifically, especially with regard to Japan and Vietnam in particular.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Okay. Thank you.

[Jerry Ward]

To sum it up, certainly we would not lose any particular jobs. It means that we would perhaps have to get a little better at doing our marketing and finding new markets and so on.

[Karen Ludwig, Liberal, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I would like to hear from the first nations as well.

In terms of employment opportunities involved with trade, were you consulted under the previous negotiations for TPP?

[Peter Redvers]

Chief Fabian, can I respond to that?

[Chief Roy Fabian]

Yes, go ahead, Peter.

[Peter Redvers]

Thank you.

In terms of the K'atl'odeeche First Nation, this is the first consultation that has occurred. We have been standing on the sidelines, along with many other first nations, simply watching the process unfold and negotiations take place outside of any control or input that we might have had. As I mentioned earlier, being consulted on an agreement that the Prime Minister has already signed off on, even though it hasn't been ratified through Parliament, is a little late in the game.

If you are looking for the specifics on employment, when we start looking at this particular area.... As an example, if you want to talk fishing, K'atl'odeeche First Nation is right next to a very large lake that currently has a large, sustainable harvest. KFN is looking at getting into that industry.

We certainly don't deny, by any stretch of the imagination, that exporters like Mr. Ward and the Nunavut Offshore Allocation Holders Association are going to benefit. In fact, all research shows that the beneficiaries of the TPP, of this kind of agreement, are generally natural resource exporters.

There are two things that are being talked about here. One is a trade agreement, and the other is an investor protection agreement. The two seem to get muddied in some ways. You can still carry out trade and you can have a reduction in tariffs and those kinds of things that support what Mr. Ward is doing and may, in the long run, support the K'atl'odeeche First Nation, if it was to get seriously into the fishing industry relating to Great Slave Lake, but does that trade require the type of investor state protection agreement that is put in place under chapter 9? It gets beyond the definition of trade, and now we are actually into protecting investor rights over national rights.

Again, our key concern—and why we spoke to chapter 9 and not some of the other issues—is not a specific disagreement with the notion of trade and the ability to expand that. The key issue is losing control of the terms and conditions. It appears, through the investor state dispute resolution process in chapter 9, that there are clauses and portions of this agreement that really, as I noted earlier, take away the final and full ability of Canada to exercise its authority, in particular its authority under the Constitution in relation to aboriginal people. It hands over some of that control and some of that jurisdiction to these quasi-judicial ad hoc tribunals.

When we move away from the fishery and start moving into natural resource extraction—oil and gas, mining—first nations will not be key players in that, although they may be partners.

[The Chair, Liberal, Mark Eyking]

Thank you, sir.

It's well over time. We are going to move over to the NDP. Ms. Ramsey, you have the floor.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to direct my questions to Chief Fabian and Mr. Redvers. We've heard so little from aboriginal people at this table and we've heard, over and over, that they haven't been consulted, whether by the previous government or the current government.

We had National Chief Perry Bellegarde before the committee earlier this year. I'm going to read a quote, and I'm going to ask for your thoughts on this. He said:

The current approach to the TPP is not consistent with the government's commitment to rights recognition, respect, co-operation, and partnership.

Chief Fabian, I wonder whether you can speak to that, and whether you feel that your rights have been respected in the negotiation and the ongoing consultations on the trans-Pacific partnership.

[Chief Roy Fabian]

Thank you.

This whole process of trade is something that for us is a little bit difficult to follow and to understand, considering that we're new at this kind of thing. We played a big role in the history of the fur trade. We transferred 400 years of wealth in fur to other parts of the world, especially Europe. Trade takes a little bit of an understanding, but when it comes to these kinds of renewable resources and issues like that, it is a big concern.

Canada is talking about reconciliation with first nations because of the lack of respect for first nations and how we're treated by the rest of Canada and how we're marginalized as a people. When you talk about these kinds of economies and jobs and things like that, it sure would be nice to have our people working. It would be nice to have a proper education so that our people can work.

At one time, as first nations, we had the capacity to be able to live independently and we were self-reliant. It's now to the point where we're no longer independent and we're no longer self-reliant, and this is a big issue for me. When we talk about these kinds of issues, it's about us and how we participate in the world today. Then all of a sudden along come these kinds of situations where other countries and corporations' rights are over and above our rights.

If reconciliation is going to take place between first nations and Canada, these issues need to be dealt with in a good way, so that our people can feel comfortable that our rights are not going to be infringed on to try to fulfill the trade obligations that Canada might have with other countries.

It is a big concern, and sometimes a little bit difficult to understand.

[Tracey Ramsey, NDP, Essex, ON]

Chief, I couldn't agree more.

I have one last quick question for you.

When National Chief Bellegarde was here, he called on Global Affairs Canada to immediately conduct and share with all first nations an analysis of all potential impacts of the TPP on first nations' self-governance.

My question is this: have you received anything from Global Affairs to indicate to you how it would impact your community?