Evidence of meeting #46 for International Trade in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Philippe Méla  Legislative Clerk
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Rémi Bourgault
Pierre Marc Johnson  Chief Negotiator of the Government of Québec for the Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) and Counsel, Lavery, de Billy, As an Individual
Jason Langrish  Executive Director, Canada Europe Round Table for Business
Louise Barrington  Fellow and Chartered Arbitrator, Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, As an Individual
Martin Valasek  Partner, Norton Rose Fulbright Canada LLP, As an Individual

12:30 p.m.

Fellow and Chartered Arbitrator, Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, As an Individual

Louise Barrington

It is definitely a trend, and as Martin said, we're hearing about it a lot more. When the stakes are so high, it's difficult to have it curbed voluntarily by saying to people, “You shouldn't do this; it's not a good idea, because in the long run it's going to be negative.” That's not the kind of argument that works.

I'm on the fence, by the way, about this new system, but I think one of the main advantages of it is that with a permanent group of people and with transparency, we may get more consistency. The consistency may lead to more conservatism in dealing with marginal or perhaps vexatious claims. I don't know; I'm hoping that might be the case.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON

One thing you said is that the first place that is being looked at is treaties in which businesses can make money suing governments in order to line their pockets. This is a major concern for Canadians.

The other thing I want to ask you about is the joint interpretive declaration. This has been called a political statement rather than a legally enforceable document. I wonder what your thoughts are around that.

12:30 p.m.

Fellow and Chartered Arbitrator, Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, As an Individual

Louise Barrington

Yes, it's not legally enforceable, but it does provide an overarching principle, which would be a very valid thing to refer to when you are looking at what you're going to decide in a particular situation.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON

One question I asked Steve Verheul was whether there was ever a point in time when we said, “Let's not have this provision; let's not do this. We're between developed countries. We don't need these ISDS mechanisms. We can do a state-to-state resolution.”

I wonder whether you could give your thoughts on that. If we had state-to-state resolution rather than this particular mechanism, would that not strengthen our relationship in this trade agreement and provide a mechanism for people that didn't involve this separate court system?

12:30 p.m.

Fellow and Chartered Arbitrator, Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, As an Individual

Louise Barrington

The state-to-state option is one that is not really satisfactory to business. Too many different political variables enter into state-to-state resolution. It may be that my particular claim is not worth the state's jeopardizing its other relationships with the state I'm going to complain against. That has long been seen as unsatisfactory.

That's one reason that arbitration has always been used so much. This whole idea of a private party being able to go against the state, which is a relatively new one that has come out of these BITs, has been so popular because it has allowed private businesses to undertake their own claims against the government they feel has wounded them.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Tracey Ramsey NDP Essex, ON

I agree, and it's not—

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you. We'll move over to the Liberals now.

I understand there's going to be a splitting of time.

Mr. Dhaliwal, you go ahead and start off.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the panel members.

It's my understanding that most of the pharmaceutical generic drugs in Canada are manufactured locally in Canada and that brand name drugs are imported into Canada. Could you explain how CETA would affect the Canadian pharmaceutical manufacturing industry?

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Which witness are you asking?

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

It can be any one.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Go ahead.

12:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Canada Europe Round Table for Business

Jason Langrish

I don't know whether that is the case, but remember that generics were once research-based products. Essentially they're copying products that were innovative; you thus can't have generics without innovation to begin with. By increasing intellectual property protections, you increase the desirability of Canada as a location for committing to research and development and ultimately running the trials and all the tasks that are required in ultimately commercializing the product.

The thing is that often the pharmaceutical industry is criticized because it says you haven't lived up to your commitment, but the thing is, the intellectual property rules are not a stagnant thing. We can't just look back and say, “The last time we upgraded our intellectual property provisions was 25 years ago. Why aren't they living up to their promise?” Maybe it's because other jurisdictions have not only provided more robust intellectual property protections, but also probably contributed to a more cohesive system that surrounds the innovation and commercialization of these products.

There are many elements to it, but ultimately, although they may not always admit it, the two industries are pretty much linked, because one's innovation becomes another's generic at some point down the road. The question is, how long is their exclusivity as the innovator before the generic can take it off? That's really the balance that CETA sought to establish.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Thank you.

I come from British Columbia and I heard that CETA would help the service sector, forestry, and mining, so if I were to stand in the House and vote against this agreement, could you tell me why I would be doing a disservice to British Columbians and to Canadians in general?

12:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Canada Europe Round Table for Business

Jason Langrish

At the event we had today, one of the speakers was from the Wood Pellet Association. In the U.K. alone they're exporting, I think, up to $300 million a year. There's all kinds of it in the forestry sector. All the tariffs will be below zero upon implementation of the agreement. You have all kinds of developments that are happening over in Europe. I know that in the Netherlands they're now building incredibly tall structures made from wood products that were previously unimaginable, so there are significant opportunities in the construction industry for British Columbia's forestry products in this market.

What was the other sector that you mentioned?

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

It was mining, and service.

12:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Canada Europe Round Table for Business

Jason Langrish

Absolutely.

The other issue with regard to mining is it's not just about getting the products into the European market. It's also about ensuring that they're not caught up in technical barriers to trade or caught up in a regulation that is capricious or that is not based on sound science. It's ensuring that it's not used as a way of essentially stigmatizing or blocking a product coming in, based on the concept that it may possibly cause some harm. That's not really how we operate within our society. We are a fact-based, science-based society, and the CETA would bring some certainty to those exporters that when their products are being evaluated and going into the European market, they're going to be treated with rigour and based on peer-reviewed science and not politicized. That's an advantage, of course, for your province as well.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Thank you.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Ms. Ludwig, please make it a short question.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB

My question is very short. I'm just going to follow up with Mr. Langrish, following up on Mr. Hoback's question about the role of business in trade training and connecting the business sector.

To what extent are you aware of the business community working to help small businesses and even medium-sized businesses know of the opportunities and the benefits of, for example, registering with the virtual trade commissioner service, the benefits of the economic development commission in terms of trade insurance, and the role of exporting and importing? Even on the importing side, there should be opportunities there for domestic businesses.

12:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Canada Europe Round Table for Business

Jason Langrish

That's digging down a bit. It goes beyond what my mandate is at the Canada Europe Round Table for Business.

What we really would see, for instance, is larger businesses working with community colleges and educational institutions with regard to apprenticeship programs and that type of thing. Mohawk College, for instance, has a very robust program that works with large manufacturing operations. Obviously it's part of trade training to work with these very specific educational institutions to bring people into the workforce to ensure that they have the right skills that these businesses need so that they can develop productive careers and get involved with these business organizations, whether that means contracting with large businesses locally or globally or working directly for these large businesses. That opens up all kinds of opportunities to get involved in international trade and to perhaps move to different jobs within these larger businesses.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Thank you.

12:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Canada Europe Round Table for Business

Jason Langrish

They also have supplier lists where SMEs can register and can bid to be suppliers to these companies. There are things happening, but I don't know that I can really answer the full scope of what they're doing.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Mark Eyking

Thank you.

Pretty well all the MPs had dialogue today. We had a very good day. I have to commend our technicians for bringing everything together for us.

Thank you, witnesses, for being with us today. As you know, this bill is in the House right now and we'll be dealing with it over the next few weeks. Thank you again for your input. It was very informative today. Have a merry Christmas. Thank you very much.

There is just one more issue here. It's dealing with the amendments. Go ahead, Rémi. Perhaps you can explain it.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Are we in camera?

12:40 p.m.

The Clerk

No, that's okay. We did it in public in the first place.

We agreed to have the clause-by-clause study on December 6. I want to know if the members of the committee are agreed on the deadline to submit the amendments to the committee. We discussed that, but it wasn't clear. We can give them to the independents and also to the members of the committee. If there are any amendments, they should be given to the clerk of the committee by Friday, December 2, at 4 p.m., for the 48 hours' notice. That will be in the motion I will be drafting following the discussion at the beginning.